1 minute ago, Khan said:

That's due in large part to Eric Braeden, whose Victor Newman has always scored well, both with men and with "urban" audiences. He's basically their wish fulfillment: an s.o.b., who has enough money to tell whoever to go f**k themselves.

Amazing! But I think you're right (even though he's always been a reason--with all respect to Eric--I've never been a fan.)

1 minute ago, EricMontreal22 said:

The timeslot might have helped (lunch for a lot of people.) I know people on here will disagree with me, but I think AMC at the time also did things like incorporate social issues (Vietnam remained a constant until at least 1974 judging from scripts) and stronger male characters than a lot of soaps had--or more complex. I do have a note from the Nixon archives that with OLTL (and presumably AMC) she does NOT want organ music, and I assume that would make younger viewer, male and female, not associate the show with their parents soap. (Of course ABC had already done this with Dark Shadows but that's a special case.)

This is just a guess, but I also assume it looked more "realistic" than the Hollywood look Y&R had (though hasn't Y&R also been known to have a pretty strong male demo over the years?)

Yes, although I've always heard that The Edge of Night, Dark Shadows and All My Children did the best with male viewers.

2 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I think these are great points (even as I admit I will never understand what appeals to straight men ;) )

They do seem to exist in an alternative universe, LOL!

8 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Pffft!

DAYS was on fire when it went to an hour, and William J. Bell and head writer Pat Falken Smith wrote is beautifully.

Was Nixon's comment ever explained?

But Bell basically was only overseeing DAYS at that point, right--a contractual obligation? (Not to say his influence wasn't felt.)

I think Nixon would have never made such a comment in public. She had a lot of respect for Bell. If you've read All Her Children, there's an interview where her daughter tells Nixon that she thinks someone is stealing her storylines (it's obviously Bell at Y&R) and she says that they tell their stories very differently.

One thing I do love about the Bell soaps and the Nixon soaps, at least at their core, is that they seemed to take two different aspects of Irna Phillips (their shared mentor) and her approach to soap, and went with them. Which is simplistic, of course--Agnes Nixon's Guiding Light is very heavy on melodrama, etc but.

25 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

there is a note that they "don't want to do what Days of Our Lives did"

Could that be referring to the production side of things where Days attempted to tape it as they had the 30 min format and that lead to all sorts of problems? Wes Kenney came in and changed things to make it easier on staff and actors.

I know when AMC did that special week the hours were long and unsustainable long term.

Just now, EricMontreal22 said:

But Bell basically was only overseeing DAYS at that point, right--a contractual obligation? (Not to say his influence wasn't felt.)

According to an interview I have from that time, Bell said he drew up the extensive bible for the year, with assistance from Pat Falken Smith, and then she took the writing from there. So while he was in a supervisory position, he did seem to have a large hand in the overall storyline creation. Smith admitted she questioned his choices sometimes, but she played them out, nevertheless.

When Ann Marcus took over as head writer, she said that Bell would present her with his bible, but she would, "change it as I saw fit." (The writing went to hell at that point.)

Just now, EricMontreal22 said:

I think Nixon would have never made such a comment in public. She had a lot of respect for Bell. If you've read All Her Children, there's an interview where her daughter tells Nixon that she thinks someone is stealing her storylines (it's obviously Bell at Y&R) and she says that they tell their stories very differently.

I remember, yes! Nixon explained that Bell's work was too "unrelieved in its tragedy," whereas she loved having bits of levity and humor thrown into her shows.

Just now, EricMontreal22 said:

One thing I do love about the Bell soaps and the Nixon soaps, at least at their core, is that they seemed to take two different aspects of Irna Phillips (their shared mentor) and her approach to soap, and went with them. Which is simplistic, of course--Agnes Nixon's Guiding Light is very heavy on melodrama, etc but.

ITA.

2 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

I remember, yes! Nixon explained that Bell's work was too "unrelieved in its tragedy," whereas she loved having bits of levity and humor thrown into her shows.

I wonder if AMC taking off in the early '80s is one of the reasons Bell started introducing comedy elements to Y&R like Douglas and Boobsie.

1 minute ago, DRW50 said:

I wonder if AMC taking off in the early '80s is one of the reasons Bell started introducing comedy elements to Y&R like Douglas and Boobsie.

It could be. Success breeds imitation, and Y&R struggled when it first went to an hour.

I always appreciated both forms of storytelling: Nixon's slice-of-life drama with levity thrown in, and Bell's haunting, romanticized heartbreak material.

Different soaps had different identities back in the day, which kept them unique and interesting.

26 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

It could be. Success breeds imitation, and Y&R struggled when it first went to an hour.

I always appreciated both forms of storytelling: Nixon's slice-of-life drama with levity thrown in, and Bell's haunting, romanticized heartbreak material.

Different soaps had different identities back in the day, which kept them unique and interesting.

Amen. I don't understand why by the 1990s this seemed to be lost (I guess unless you have soap parody with Passions.)

1 hour ago, EricMontreal22 said:

Amen. I don't understand why by the 1990s this seemed to be lost (I guess unless you have soap parody with Passions.)

It was that sort of idiocy which crucified the soaps.

At least Passions was created to be low-brow camp, so it had no past legacy or integrity to protect, but when so many of the classic shows started aping GH's sci-fi fantasy nonsense, literate soaps paid the price.

5 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

Yes, although I've always heard that The Edge of Night, Dark Shadows and All My Children did the best with male viewers.

They do seem to exist in an alternative universe, LOL!

Straight men are easy to read and understand.. plus easier to work with because of that very fact. And I say this as a gay man

I think EON & DS were popular with men and teen viewers because of the timeslots for both shows being later in the day. My grandfather used to turn on EON when he was coming home from work while my mom would watch DS after school and before she had to do her homework.

Victor Newman is to straight men what Erica Kane was to gay men and to some of the female audience. A character that said and did the very things they secretly wish they say or do. It's not that difficult to understand.

In regards to OLTL, I think another reason why Cathy was pretty much phased out by the end of the decade was a combination of different things.

1) Last actress hired wasn't exactly the best person to play the role despite the fcat that she snagged a daytime emmy nomination. Her take on Cathy weakened the character and made her less of a rival to Vicki.

2) Killing off baby Megan. Sure it gave the character of Cathy some meaty scenes and story for awhile... but keeping the baby alive would have ensured Cathy/Vicki would have remained in one another's orbit for much longer especially once Kevin/Joey were born.

Also, I did come across scenes of JC playing her dual role of Pat and Maggie.. and the way JC played Maggie was the same way that Eileen Davidson played Susan Banks. I give JC props for giving it her all.. but very few people can play a dual role successfully. Not everyone is an Anne Heche or David Canary.

@Soaplovers , great, insightful post.

I agree with all your points.👍

It's been my experience that most soap aficionados come to view a certain set of characters as the cornerstones of a show; the core group who make the series feel like home to them. Sometimes, but not always, this depends on when viewers first began watching, and who was prominent on screen then. Other times, it is influenced by the historical knowledge of what characters had been there from the beginning and consistently treated as integral to the drama.

On OLTL, whom do/did you see as the cornerstone characters; the Llanview denizens who kept you loyally tuning in, and whom you considered important components of the show's identity?

To me, it was:

Victoria Lord (ultimately Erika Slezak)

Joe Riley (Lee Patterson)

Larry Wolek (ultimately Michael Storm)

Carla Gray (Ellen Holly)

Sadie Gray (Lillian Hayman)

Anna Wolek Craig (Doris Belak)

Vinnie Wolek (Anthony Ponzini)

Ed Hall (Al Freeman, Jr)

As the years progressed other characters were woven into the canvas, whom I came to see as essential parts of the Llanview community:

Wanda Webb Wolek (Marilyn Chris)

Dorian Lord (Nancy Pinkerton, later Robin Strasser)

Jenny Wolek (mainly Brynn Thayer)

Pat Ashley Kendall (Jacquie Courtney)

Karen Wolek Wolek (Judith Light)

These are the character in whom I was invested the most, and whom I considered important for my continued loyalty to the seies.

As more and more of them were foolishly cast aside, my attachment to Llanview dwindled significantly.

Who were your personal, essential, cornerstone characters, who kept you loyal to OLTL and tuning in?

35 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

core group who make the series feel like home to them.

On OLTL, whom do/did you see as the cornerstone characters; the Llanview denizens who kept you loyally tuning in, and whom you considered important components of the show's identity?

from watching broadcast tv as it aired:
The Woleks, Lords, Rileys, and Carla/Ed.

primarily:
Victoria Lord (Erika Slezak)
Joe Riley (Lee Patterson)
Larry Wolek (ultimately Michael Storm. I saw both Storm brothers but was too young to notice the recasting)
Meredith Lord Wolek (Lynn Benesch)
Anna Wolek Craig (Doris Belack)
Vinnie Wolek (Anthony Ponzini)
Wanda Webb Wolek (Marilyn Chris)
Carla Gray (Ellen Holly)

secondarily
Dorian Lord (Nancy Pinkerton)
Jenny Wolek (Karen Glass)
Ed Hall (Al Freeman, Jr.)
Joe's sister Eileen Riley Siegel
Eileen's son Timmy Siegel
(For Timmy and Eileen, it was more about the character storyline to me and I have little memory of the actors).
and --
Karen Wolek Wolek
For Karen, I saw Kathryn Breech's portrayal on first-run tv broadcast, but my memory of that actress is a blur to me, so I remember the character and not the actress. I came to see Judith Light on TV when visiting friends who were watching her, or later in repeats on soapnet, and then she became the Karen I remember, as she was so amazing.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by janea4old

1 hour ago, vetsoapfan said:

Pat Ashley Kendall (Jacquie Courtney)

She came on the show just as I left highschool, so I rarely saw her, and I have to look her up when she is mentioned in soap discussions.

I have memories of the atmosphere of OLTL from the time I watched the most. Viki, Anna, Eileen, and Wanda, in various combinations, especially the women sitting in kitchens talking with each other.
Every time I see a rerun of Law&Order with Doris Belack as a judge, I am instantly brought into a kitchen with Anna Wolek. I want to have coffee with her.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by janea4old