Will & Grace: Discussion Thread

[Sylph]

[Y&RWorldTurner]

Another show that lasted 4 seasons too long...

I hated how they started to rely on famous guest stars and recycled jokes somewhere in the third season, and then it got worse and worse after that.

[Sylph]

Kohan & Mutchnick left in the middle of season six, they were replaced as show-runners with Alex Herschlag and Dave Flebotte, who in turn got replaced in season eight by Gary Janetti, Tracy Poust, Jon Kinnally and Tim Kaise.

[DaytimeFan]

That's a very good point Y&RWorldTurner, it lasted 4 years too long, 1998-2002 was wonderful...and then...Grace got married to Harry Connick Jr's irritating as sh*t Leo and the whole show fell apart.

The writing got hacky, the Beverly Lesley character wore out his welcome, as did Blythe Danner and Leslie Ann Warren. The guest stars stayed too long (Minnie Driver anyone?) and yeah, overall, it just fell apart.

But the first 4 seasons were wonderful. Molly Shannon was a fabulous recurring character as Val, Karen and Jack were spiteful fun. It was great.

I HATED the series finale. Just hated it. I loved that show and the series finale just seemed like such a [!@#$%^&*] mess.

[Bright Eyes]

How did the show end, anyway?

[DaytimeFan]

It was a back to the future episode. It ended with Will & Grace having a big blowout fight and they stopped being friends. Then it jumped 20 years ahead and Will & Grace were both moving their respective children into college dorms when they ran into each other and rekindled their friendship. Will, Grace and Jack all aged. Karen, miraculously, looked exactly the same.

It just sucked. It wasn't funny at all.

The only redeeming thing was that it ended with Queen's 'Your My Best Friend' playing over the end.

[Sylph]

Terribly.

Will & Grace have a feud which lasts 20 years (!!!).

Will & Vince have a son (Ben). Grace & Leo have a daughter (Lila).

Ben & Lila meet in college and eventually marry. Which is when Will & Grace reconcile.

Karen ends up broke, but thanks to Jack inheriting money from Beverley Leslie after Beverley fell off a balcony, Jack ends up being able to pay for all her excesses (a sort of return favour for all she did for him).

Karen is also in a lesbian relationship with Rosario. Rosario is wheelchair-bound and lives with Jack & Karen.

Karen hasn't aged at all.

It was just sad to see this show go like this. The 20-years long feud was just... Wow. How could they do this?

It also had weird time-jumping and dream sequences which were so out of place.

[Sylph]

Hm. I'm kind of disappointed you didn't like it more. Especially Jack & Karen. Your comment seems of mild admiration.

Anyway, what sucked?

For example, Jack dropping his nurse career then going back to dancing for Jennifer Lopez.

Blythe. And Tina. George Truman.

Grace not ending up married to Will's brother.

Elliott a lot of times.

Leo.

Nathan (Woody Harrelson).

How did you like Michael Douglas, Glenn Close, Madonna, Cher and, most importantly, Joan Collins?

[DaytimeFan]

Don't misunderstand, those first 4 seasons I thought were fantastic and not one dud episode in the bunch. Jack and Karen WERE the show, that's not even worth debating. Debra Messing and Eric McCormack can thank God that Megan Mullally and Sean Hayes carried the show and in turn made everyone very rich.

I agree with everything you listed as Sucking. Yep. Though I don't think it was ever a good idea to have Grace marry someone, it killed the faux marriage dynamic that Will & Grace had. Totally forgot about Woody Harrelson, he was far better than Harry Connick Jr because of the comedic chemistry between Will and Nathan.

Michael Douglas = hilarious, one of the best comedic turns of his career.

Glenn Close = hacky. Not as fun as it could have been.

Madonna = she was good! She's only been good, acting wise, in A League of Their Own and Desperately Seeking Susan, her Will & Grace role rounded out 3 decent performances.

Cher = pure camp. Cher is a cool lady, she can laugh at herself. I liked her first appearance when Jack impersonated her...the next one when she was Jack's version of heaven I didn't like as much because it seemed repetitive, as in, Cher needed a plug for her Vegas show.

Joan Collins = terrific and fit in seamlessly (like Molly Shannon did). What I hate is that the Beverly Leslie character was actually supposed to be a return of Joan's character Helena Barnes, but Joan and the producers fell out over a scene where Joan's wig would have been ripped off in what would have been her second episode, so it never happened. A wasted opportunity because Joan lampooned herself/Alexis really well, her scene in Taco Time snatching the taco away from the dog and eating it was great because it was out of the 'Joan Collins Box'...it was different and demonstrated that Joan is a good light comedic actress. Her episode was selected by fans and NBC as one of the Will & Grace top 6 episodes when they ran a marathon of them one sweeps period.

[Sylph]

I like them as a quartet, actually. Debra and Eric were very good even though, yes, Sean and Megan were in a league of their own. There were lots of stuff I liked about Debra's portrayal of Grace and Eric's of Will. And I like both Will and Grace as characters. You are right that they were basically a married couple, which is something the creators themselves pointed out (notably when Jeff Greenstein said he didn't get the show, they told him: They're a married couple; and he got it all and went on to write the show's best episodes).

Woody Harrelson is a big no for me, I just hated him. He just bugged me for various reasons.

Of course, Grace in the perfect world wouldn't end up being someone's wife, but you know how these shows go. The last episode marriage/wedding is just a must. So if she was supposed to have had a husband, Will's brother seamed like a good pick to me. As for Will... I don't know. Vince was terrible, though.

I agree with all of this.

And I didn't know Joan was meant to have a bigger role. It's sad there are no clips on YT from her stint, or I just can't find them.

[DaytimeFan]

Yeah, I don't mean to trash Debra or Eric because they both did good work...but they cannot be compared to Sean or Megan. Very different sets of characters though, had Will & Grace been like Jack & Karen the show would have failed.

Woody wasn't good, but for me he was miles better than Harry Connick Jr. At least Woody's an actor.

I suppose I'm spoiled with shows like Absolutely Fabulous that don't sew things up in nice little endings like Grace's marriage. Hated that she got married. Absolutely hated it. Will & Grace having a baby via in vitro would have been a better alternative, though it still would have been hacked.

Vince...Bobby Cannavale is a very likeable, charismatic actor. I think that's the only thing that saved him from being a total dud. One of my gay best friends is exactly like the character, even sort of looks like him...I'd never realized that before!

Yes, Joan was meant to be a recurring character because the writers saw how popular Karen was and that she needed a foil that wasn't Rosario. The only good thing that came out of Joan not continuing in it is that she ended up in the arms of the man who would become her husband (he was editing a book she was writing, when all the sh*t went down with the producers she got really upset and the rest, according to Joan, is history).

[SFK]

This show makes me laugh and all but I was never a huge fan as I found the writing to be too clever and self-satisfied for its own good.

[Sylph]

Which is, kind of, precisely the thing that attracts me.

[sheilaforever]

The first 4 season were great, although season 1 not so much.

With LEO everything fell apart as you all said though the show rebounded somewhat after they ditched the character. Thought season 8 was pretty funny again although the finale sucked. I really liked that live show episode in Karen's closet - one of the funniest episodes of the whole series.

Oh, runners up was one of the CHER episodes where Jack was in heaven and Cher was pimping her new single in his awakening dream. LOL! Or the Kevin Bacon episode which was a lovely spoof of celebrity stalking. Some great sh*t.

God bless Karen Walker! She made every episode somehow worthwhile...

Oh and I HATED It when they dropped Jack's son, before bringing him back in season 8. I really liked that angle. Not so much the trashterpiece woman Lesley-Anne Warren, Blythe Danner and Minnie Driver.

[DeeeDee]

IF AH CUD TUHN BAK TAHHHHM! TAHHHH-AHHHH-AHHHH-AHHHM! TAHHHH-AHHHH-AHHHH-AHHHM! TAHHHH-AHHHH-AHHHH-AHHHM!