The Politics Thread

One more thing I'm not going to watch because of Trump. Who's left to perform Ted Nigent.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mormon-tabernacle-choir-singer-quits-over-trump-inaugural-123210597.html?ref=gs

13 hours ago, DRW50 said:

One of the things that I'm most wary of with Democrats is those who have the naive belief that we're always on a path to getting better, and people just have to understand this reality. Many people don't and won't understand that. I'm not saying cater to these views, because Democrats have tried to do that too and often failed - but you can't just dismiss them. It's difficult, because views are so hardened now, even the most compassionate or skilled Democratic candidate isn't going to convince a voter to agree or to compromise, but there has to be a middle ground between pandering and essentially writing off huge portions of voters and entire states, entire sections of the country, as impossible to reach, and saying it won't matter because demographics means other parts of the country will "catch up." Republicans have shown just how efficient they are at that rendering that impossible.

 

There's something inherently decent in many Democrats that they believe everything will move toward equality, fairness, and tolerance (although some struggle to adjust to the reality of this not involving white liberals patting POC on the head), but this also means many of them simply can't and won't understand the huge portions of the country that don't feel this way. Many can't be reached, but the sliver that can be reached - not through pandering and lurching to the right, but in empathy and honest talk - are worth the effort. Instead we either have sneering and elitism, or the tedious wanking of "What's the Matter With Kansas?" that yearns for a past that is never coming back. 

 

Republicans are generally ruthless and vile and have a killer instinct, and most Democrats in power in many recent decades rarely seem to have the same instincts. They just seem dumbfounded. Democrats seem to be showing more spine now because Trump is just that wretched, but it needs to not just be petulance, but planned action up and down the country, from legislatures and councils on. I'm wary of just how many Democrats are only focused on Trump and not on everything else in the party that empowered him. The more I see people say that Pence is better, the more I'm reminded of how easy it will be for Republicans to move on once Trump is gone. 

 

Without big changes, then, as unlikely as it is anytime soon, if the Republicans ever did thread the needle on social issues or on being such open bigots and racists, Democrats would be rendered all but extinct, because those are the main reasons to vote for Democrats now. You aren't voting for them - you're voting against Republicans. And this year that wasn't enough. I'm not sure if will be enough in 4 years (if we aren't nuked out by then) either. 

 

Democrats like America itself is at an all important crossroads, at this point in time, and I think it needs to be underscored America needs change, but at the same time doesn't know how to action any of those changes, and government inherently is difficult and takes forever for anything to change or resolve anything. I think the American people feel and understand that more now then ever, but the cycle is pervasive and unending. Nothing will get done, and we have a community that is too large that has diametrically opposed views on what direction they want to go in. The cycling back and forth between two parties just ends up manifesting itself as largely standing still, because the previous party has to walk back on all the things the previous party did while they were in power. It's an endless cycle that isn't efficient. Something needs to happen to break the cycle - I doubt more and more that this two party system will ever work.

 

I think the unending lie of the democratic party is that demographics will swing towards them, no matter what and they just need to be patient for these parties to arise, not realizing that the goal of the Republican party is to make sure that day never comes in the form of allocating all the resources they can to disenfranchising as much people as possible. The gerrymandering and anything that comes through over the next 4 years will be a solidification of doing all they can to keep power in the establishment and lower the position of minorities.

 

That being said democrats need to be focused on winning elections. The popular vote is nearly always in their favor but the electoral college is not. That being said I do not believe it is worth cannibalizing the entire platform for these individuals that may never vote for what they propose. Analysis needs to be done on if these voters fit into the demographic of newer or converted blue states like New Mexico and Colorado. I think in about 8 years, even Texas could be competitive. So Democrats have a lot to potentially look forward to, but at the same time they have to protect the vulnerable demographics who are most at risk. At the same time there are voters who are just plenty uneducated about so much -- thinking about Kentucky, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and the like who voted for Trump and then are completely afraid that they will lose Obamacare or that their aid will get defunded which is a cornerstone of the Republican party. They are essentially Snidely Whiplash characters who want everyone to either die, starve, become homeless or become entrepreneurs. I don't think they will ever understand or come to the other side unless we let them get exactly what they asked for. We can't be the liberal soft hearts anymore trying to stop enablers from drinking poison. I'm not afraid of the Republicans ever becoming decent because they haven't shown that for years, and their hypocrisy can only be supported by those who don't intelligently look at their arguments. It takes a special kind of person to ignore the fact that the party leader of the Republicans was a recipient of government aid, and now wants to abolish the program because he got what he needed from it.

 

 

12 hours ago, Vee said:

I think Carl is right on about a lot of the problems with Democrats. My problem is that, just as you say, there has to be a middle ground between reaching out and reconnecting to the white working-class (however distasteful I presently find reaching out to that segment of apathetic Trump voters or non-voters) versus catering to them and largely abandoning our progressive social values.

 

I say 'social' because I think the far left and a lot of the Sanders contingent are all too eager to re-focus entirely on the white working class and economic issues, and call social issues, racial issues, diversity issues merely a 'distraction' just as Sanders did during the primaries. I think it makes the predominantly white, often-aging far left far more comfortable to be in the driver's seat on those issues and simply name-dropping Bernie, Howard Dean, etc. (not that I have anything against Dean, but he is in the mold: white and loud) vs. engaging with a more racially and sexually diverse progressive movement in the age of Obama and post-Obama, which is part of why many of them never trusted him and resented him IMO - because he usurped their power base, their message, their easy throne. It's the same meltdown we've seen with many progressive vanguard commentators from the Bush years, from Glenn Greenwald on down, when the angry white leftist on the Internet reigned supreme. Their attitude towards Obama, since 2008, has too often been 'who does he think he is?' IMO, Barack Obama was as much an agent of racial panic and resentment for the far left as he was for the right and the undecideds.

There is a battle for the soul of the Democratic Party but it's not just about bridging the working class gap, it's about reconciling our ideology with the predominantly white, straight, male elements of the party who do not want to let go of being not only morally 'right' but in full control. And that begins with the Sanders diehards, and there is a racial and otherwise discriminatory element. It was the same in my mother's day when she was an activist - in the '60s the men always took the megaphone.

 

I think it goes back to seeing how far gone these people are. If they really believe that minorities are evil people and that they don't deserve to exist then there not much that can be done. At that same token there needs to be responsibility on their side to understand that the jobs that they lost aren't coming back and they need to move to another field or industry. Many of them refuse to see that - and as such they will continue to be destroyed as we move into the future. The cutting of aid programs will only exacerbate their issues. If people can't understand that all people deserve equality and a chance and deserve the opportunity of a better life America is dead. Overall the party needs to be about progression and integration. That's what I always understood the party to be and that's what I believe it still is - but it's also morphed into an elitist and intellectualized hub of diversity, and those ideologies have been demonized by the right. As if it's cool to be ignorant and not know information. This anti-intellectualism has grown with the last two Republican president elects - George W. Bush and Donald Trump. It's really abhorrent and disgusting.

 

12 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

I think Trump may just find that it will be harder to undo something things than he may have thought. Meanwhile, he'll be on the hook to the Russians, who no doubt have intel on him as they hacked the RNC records but opted not to use any information. The Russians need only have a third party embarrass Trump on the world stage and he becomes a national liability.

 

What I love is that Obama is putting in as many roadblocks as he can to stop Donald's craziest proposals. It will take a while for Trump to effect things on a significant scale - I'm hoping that with Obama's orders it will take him 2-2.5 years to really implement many of his changes, but with the Republican lead Congress and Senate, as well as a Supreme Court - it's going to be a rough time, and if Democrats lose any more seats (which is likely in the mid year elections) Trump could alter the constitution.

 

11 hours ago, Khan said:

 

Also true.  Which is why I feel so...conflicted over Carl and Vee's brilliantly drawn arguments.  Because I DO agree that they are a lost cause, incapable of growth or compromise; and I fear that reaching out to them (and not correcting or outright rejecting them) will only result in reinforcing their false ideas and keeping this country as divisive as ever....

 

And yet, Carl and Vee are right: the Democratic party can't regain any footing if they don't at least try.

 

We really have to see if they can be educated and if they are willing to learn the reasons for their problems and the personal responsibility of their actions, and how they have caused their failings. The recession hit everyone hard, but the economy has largely sprung back. They need to ask themselves hard questions like why haven't they recovered while others have.

 

11 hours ago, Vee said:

Trump is a desperate attempt to reinforce a lot of people's comfortable views of an America that is fading. Eight years of a black guy plus rapidly changing social issues and now a woman made a huge segment of our old culture face an existential crisis. Trump was a last, petulant gasp for baby boomer-era white supremacy. But he is the last. And his coalition is not a coalition at all, it's just a bunch of disparate voters plus the Republican/Tea Party bigot base, all of whom can and will turn on him in a flash for a million reasons.

 

I don't like any of these people right now; I actively detest many of them. But the ones who are apathetic, disaffected, party-less, passively racist or at least deeply uncomfortable with their place in a changing America - many of them can be peeled off from Trump, reconnected with, brought into the fold and told it's not gonna be so bad. And some of them will have to be. I just don't know if I'll be the one able to do that.

 

Don't quite believe this, I think they will be emboldened and united with every law Trump passes that harms minorities. It's already happening that the Republicans are targeting Muslims, Gays, Immigrants and Women - it's only a matter of time before he begins targeting the black community, if they haven't already. No one is safe, and every action or measure that is taken that harms these groups will rally his base even more. They like the idea of hurting people who are not white, straight and cis-gendered. Every measure he takes against them will be an action against their war against liberals.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Skin said:

Don't quite believe this, I think they will be emboldened and united with every law Trump passes that harms minorities. It's already happening that the Republicans are targeting Muslims, Gays, Immigrants and Women - it's only a matter of time before he begins targeting the black community, if they haven't already. No one is safe, and every action or measure that is taken that harms these groups will rally his base even more. They like the idea of hurting people who are not white, straight and cis-gendered. Every measure he takes against them will be an action against their war against liberals.

 

This. Trump's victory was about payback. This is why they don't care that he's not keeping any of his promises. They want to hurt and punish the people who took "their" America away and while they are celebrating that the Republicans are going to gut the social safety net so many of them depend on. Trump told them that they were the most important Americans in the country and as long as he keeps telling them that they'll accept anything he does even if it kills them.

One thing about the coverage and professional analysis of the election is that a lot of the talking heads have stopped talking about authoritarianism, but I'd say that's still at the heart of the election of this particular man. If it were just about people taking back "their" America or punishing "the other" nearly any of the (relatively) normal Republican candidates would have won.  Most of them are every bit as racist as Trump and they don't really hide it in terms of policy.

 

Obviously, Trump certainly would have won if not for racism (and sexism), but I think in many cases it was a more passive kind of racism. To be more specific, I think a lot of white people voted from a place of privilege.  They may not have liked or even agreed with some of the things Trump was saying, but racism wasn't a deal breaker for them because it wasn't going to affect them directly. Otherwise we have to believe that there are 60 million rabid racists (and sexists) in this country and I doubt that for a lot of reasons.  It would also explain why some of the people who voted for Obama twice turned to Trump.

 

Kellyanne Conway alluded to this idea when she said that her polling showed that there was a difference between what offended people and what affected them.

 

I also heartily agree that it's a huge mistake to believe that demographics will just naturally turn this country towards democrats. I fell for that this last election, but I never will again. It's actually sort of arrogant for Democrats to just think non whites will turn to us by default without candidates having to earn their votes. A lot can change in the next few years and I think it would be a big mistake to just assume the numbers will turn in our favor because people have no where else to go.

52 minutes ago, Juliajms said:

Otherwise we have to believe that there are 60 million rabid racists (and sexists) in this country and I doubt that for a lot of reasons.  It would also explain why some of the people who voted for Obama twice turned to Trump.

 

Kellyanne Conway alluded to this idea when she said that her polling showed that there was a difference between what offended people and what affected them.

 

I also heartily agree that it's a huge mistake to believe that demographics will just naturally turn this country towards democrats. I fell for that this last election, but I never will again. It's actually sort of arrogant for Democrats to just think non whites will turn to us by default without candidates having to earn their votes. A lot can change in the next few years and I think it would be a big mistake to just assume the numbers will turn in our favor because people have no where else to go.

 

Honestly that doesn't make me feel any better. The fact that racism, ablism, sexism, homophobia, and Nazism and everything else wasn't enough to disqualify this man is enough to make me lose complete faith in this country.

 

As to those whites who voted for Obama and then Trump - I think those could most accurately be described as those change candidates someone in this thread described earlier. They just want change, not realizing what change will actually be or consist of. Again they feel and seem largely uninformed about what it takes for them to recover, and honestly this whole sympathy narrative is incredibly taxing because these same individuals in the Republican party have said despairing things about the black communities for decades now, and now all the sudden now that whites are having similar problems we must roll out the red carpet in order to see to their needs. It's the crack/cocaine/heroine dichotomy all over again where you demonize one race for something and then give endless understanding and sympathy to the other.

 

What I am coming to realize in regards to the numbers and trending issues is that we most likely will get there in regards to representation - we already see this happening with winning the popular vote, what I am most concerned about is the Republican's redistricting everything and putting forth suppression laws to make these numbers not count. It's a perversion of everything America stands for, and Republicans can and will do whatever it takes to disenfranchise as much people as possible. We may end up getting those numbers - but they may not end up meaning anything in the long run.

 

1 hour ago, Skin said:

As to those whites who voted for Obama and then Trump - I think those could most accurately be described as those change candidates someone in this thread described earlier. They just want change, not realizing what change will actually be or consist of. Again they feel and seem largely uninformed about what it takes for them to recover, and honestly this whole sympathy narrative is incredibly taxing because these same individuals in the Republican party have said despairing things about the black communities for decades now, and now all the sudden now that whites are having similar problems we must roll out the red carpet in order to see to their needs. It's the crack/cocaine/heroine dichotomy all over again where you demonize one race for something and then give endless understanding and sympathy to the other.

 

Thanks for mentioning this. As someone who lived through the 90s it's amazing to see how crack was a criminal problem while opiates and heroin is called a public health problem.

5 hours ago, marceline said:

 

This. Trump's victory was about payback. This is why they don't care that he's not keeping any of his promises. They want to hurt and punish the people who took "their" America away and while they are celebrating that the Republicans are going to gut the social safety net so many of them depend on. Trump told them that they were the most important Americans in the country and as long as he keeps telling them that they'll accept anything he does even if it kills them.

 

I think a lot of them likely don't actually know that there are any changes on the way to their benefits or plans. Obamacare, possibly, but I'd imagine a lot of people just don't get that there will likely also be crippling changes to Medicare and Social Security. When that happens I wouldn't be surprised if there is more of a backlash against Trump and the Republicans in Congress, although Trump will just lash out, most likely. 

45 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

 

I think a lot of them likely don't actually know that there are any changes on the way to their benefits or plans. Obamacare, possibly, but I'd imagine a lot of people just don't get that there will likely also be crippling changes to Medicare and Social Security. When that happens I wouldn't be surprised if there is more of a backlash against Trump and the Republicans in Congress, although Trump will just lash out, most likely. 

 

I'm not sure about that. From what I've seen any changes will grandfather in baby boomers so they'll basically say, "I got mine. Screw everyone else."

11 minutes ago, marceline said:

 

I'm not sure about that. From what I've seen any changes will grandfather in baby boomers so they'll basically say, "I got mine. Screw everyone else."

 

Ah. The ones I'd read about would affect everyone. They must have changed. 

6 hours ago, marceline said:

 

I'm not sure about that. From what I've seen any changes will grandfather in baby boomers so they'll basically say, "I got mine. Screw everyone else."

Yes. I have to give Paul Ryan credit for playing people so well. Old people vote and the AARP has clout, so he just grandfathers them in. He knows younger people aren't good at realize old age will happen to them soon enough. I'm sure the AARP will try to fight it, but I won't be surprised if Ryan gets his way.

11 hours ago, Skin said:

 

Honestly that doesn't make me feel any better. The fact that racism, ablism, sexism, homophobia, and Nazism and everything else wasn't enough to disqualify this man is enough to make me lose complete faith in this country.

 

I wasn't trying to make anyone feel better. I think authoritarianism is very dangerous and I'm worried that the media is losing sight of the role it's played in this election and is about to play in this administration. To make people feel better I have to dig pretty deep. I suppose 4 years ago we were getting ready for a second Obama term and we never could have seen Trump coming. Perhaps in four more years things will change again in ways we can't imagine and a decent, stable person will be taking office. That's really all I've got in terms of optimism.

Edited December 31, 20168 yr by Juliajms

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 4m4 minutes ago

Happy New Year to all, including to my many enemies and those who have fought me and lost so badly they just don't know what to do. Love!

 

Tell me this guy isn't a complete nut job. Heaven help us all.

18 minutes ago, Juliajms said:

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 4m4 minutes ago

Happy New Year to all, including to my many enemies and those who have fought me and lost so badly they just don't know what to do. Love!

 

Tell me this guy isn't a complete nut job. Heaven help us all.

 

Yesterday, a TV pundit described Trump's speech and tone as being "bipolar".  Why aren't more people alarmed by the fact that this man is going to be POTUS in less than a month?! He sounds so unstable.

 

Just yesterday, I started watching (online) the documentary about Robert Durst, a scion from a wealthy real estate family.  At one point, a neighbor completely negated something Durst told the police, which he repeated again during the interview in the documentary and couldn't help but notice the similarities between the two real estate scions- to lie with impugnity! It's downright pathological!  

Trump may not be homicidal but nonetheless America could really be swearing in a sociopath a few weeks from now.

 

9 hours ago, Juliajms said:

Perhaps in four more years things will change again in ways we can't imagine and a decent, stable person will be taking office. That's really all I've got in terms of optimism.

 

And I'm afraid I've got even less.

 

Four years from now, I think, we will be so desensitized to Trump, so accustomed to living under his brand of authoritarianism, the majority won't think twice about giving him a second term of office.  And I'm sorry to say that that majority will include people who, at this moment, are outraged by him and swear he will never be "their President."  (They're resisting now, but let's see what happens one, two, three years down the road when all that fire has left their bellies.)

 

It won't matter that Americans will be worse off economically (no jobs, reduced or no entitlements, MASSIVE debts); that another terrorist attack of the same magnitude as 9/11 will occur under his watch (and probably as a consequence of some s**t he started on Twitter); that he and his minions will have rolled back so many liberties in the name of "keeping us safe" and "making America great again" that African-Americans, for one, might as well be back to pickin' cotton on the plantations.  TrumpCo. will just spin it all their way like they always do; and people will either just lap it up or shrug and go on about their business.

 

I am not even holding my breath anymore for the mid-term elections.  I know what the stats say: that the mid-terms are always bad for the party in control.  But I also know that the Democrats have had a poor record when it comes to those, too.  (Besides, we also had stacks upon stacks of stats telling us there was no way in Hell that Trump could win.  So you'll have to forgive me if I choose from here on out to take stats, polls, predictors/pundits, and even historical precedents with a grain of salt.)

 

Add to that the Republican-led gerrymandering that is bound to go THEIR way and leave ethnic minorities further marginalized and disenfranchised from the electoral process, and as post-ers like Skin have convinced me upthread, the Republicans will ensure their stranglehold on the rest of the nation -- long after Trump and his ilk have left the building, and probably long after the actual demographics that were SUPPOSED to go the Democrats' way, with the US becoming a minority-majority nation, actually do.

 

In other words: we're fucked.  And we're gonna stay fucked for a very, very, very, very long time.

Edited December 31, 20168 yr by Khan

I can see why people are pessimistic. God knows I was and still am to some extent but I do think there are so many things people take for granted in this country which has led to voter apathy. There is no other country in the world that has the smooth transition of power and such stabilization. It may not seem that way to some, but a lot of people really believe nothing changes or has changed no matter who is in power, as change happens in many cases that slowly or seamlessly in the US. I say that outside of minorities who feel every bit of change positive or negative. It's why our overall election turnouts, yes even at the presidential election, stink. Wasn't turnout 63% in 2008 for Obama and people felt that was impressive. I find it disgraceful that it's not at least 75%. Brexit voting was considered average turnout and that was 79% in the UK. It tells you how complacent people are. Unless your way of life is really compromised or you are forever persecuted in obvious and not so obvious ways, many don't care. It's why black women have had and still have the highest voter turnout of any demographic. I frankly believe when things start really touching the people who normally don't get touched(including the rust belt white working class) in terms of social safety net programs being gone, terrorist attacks, no jobs, a trade war leading to significant consumer price increases, things will change. Instability will cause people to show up IMO. And that's everyone except well to do white males IMO.

 

The democrats need to get their crap together no question but WE need to voice our concerns and hold them accountable and do our parts to make sure people are aware and involved. As Obama has said, democracy is not a spectator sport. I have a ton of concerns but the activist meetings I have been to with a couple organizations the past 6 weeks has encouraged me. People are fired up now those in charge need to leverage that sense of activism. That's my biggest concern is that the democrats continue bickering.  Well at least in Illinois we aren't and many are primed and ready to get rid of our 2 year useless GOP governor who even our last GOP governor called a disaster.

Edited December 31, 20168 yr by JaneAusten

Honestly @Khan I think your scenario is more likely than mine.  I just felt like my post was coming off bitchy so I needed to come up with something positive.  The fact is I think we are the highway to hell and I'm feeling kind of matter of fact about it at the moment. I'm only wondering which horrific thing Trump will do first.

 

@JaneAusten I'm glad you are feeling optimistic and obviously I hope you're right.