Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[DeliaIrisFan]

I was two episodes away from the end of Loving.

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I never watched the show when it was on and honestly didn't have the highest opinion of it—and I am no fan of Esensten and Brown's writing—but I had always been somewhat fascinated by the idea that a soap deliberately killed off its core family on the way out the door, so I wanted to check this out.  At first it was easier for me to keep watching to see how they pulled it off than it probably would have been on a show I actually cared about, and it's not like I'm going out much these days, so I kept watching.  But I admittedly got hooked.

 

Christine Tudor Newman (and others) made it work and actually made me care—cynical and Loving-averse though I may be, I have to admit I got tears watching Gwyneth's final scene.  ("It hurts so much more when there's hope!")  However, I can't quite agree that the story holds up—psychologically, among other things.  And I struggle with the fact that some of the same problematic elements of he B-plots, like Laura Wright's character falsely accusing Ted King's of rape, and that always seemed to be a part of E&B's repertoire were baked into the murder mystery as well.

 

Beyond the fact that I would be horrified if this story had happened on a soap I had watched with cast members/characters I was invested in, I still found myself wondering—even if I accepted what the network and writers were trying to do and their assumptions about the audience they were clearly seeking—what they were thinking.

 

They obviously wanted a younger demographic for the new/revamped show, whom they assumed would want to watch a cast closer to their age, so why did they think that prospective audience would care about all the olds being killed off?  Why waste all that airtime (during summer vacation) and all the money on those stylized promos, etc.?  And even if the serial killer story had actually boosted ratings (with any demographic), would they really have stuck around?  I definitely checked out The City a few times to see what all the publicity was about, and from what I recall it was so different tonally from Loving at the end that it's hard to imagine someone who only got drawn in at the end continuing.

 

It also seemed like the characters who would go on to be featured on The City were at best supporting players in the murder mystery—if I'm not mistaken, the only one to make the transition to The City whose character was particularly affected by the murders was Amelia Heinle, and if memory serves she didn't even stay long.  (I know LW's character was almost a victim of the serial killer, but that was like the same week of the aforementioned rape allegation and her child being stuck in a cave and almost dying, so she didn't seem particularly fazed by it.)  From a business perspective, why not just leave the Aldens in Corinth with a few happy endings that didn't take up a great deal of airtime and use those last months to focus solely on the characters who would be featured on the new show?

 

Not to mention, from what I remember the stories on The City, especially at the beginning, were so flimsy that it seems like it would have been a letdown for audiences of any age after what was at least an umbrella story that was planned months in advance and had such high stakes.  Although that was certainly true for most soaps circa 1996.

 

I was waiting to post this until I finished the show's run and possibly even watched the first few episodes of The City because I'm admittedly ignorant, and I really don't mean to seem like I'm sh!tt!ng on show(s) I never really watched in a forum meant for their fans.  Did I miss the point?  Could this setup for revamping Loving into The City possibly have paid off, at least the way TPTB intended?  It's also mind-boggling that they went to all this trouble and pulled the plug less than a year later, but that was also a problem for more and more of these shows heading into the late '90s...and of course it only got worse.

Edited July 3, 2020 by DeliaIrisFan

[dc11786]

 

Thanks. When I first got into "Guiding Light" around 1998, I found a website that had saved the old usenet posts for "Loving" episodes. I was surprised to see that there was so little available for "Loving" given that it had aired so recently (as of 1998). My first "glimpse" of "Loving" was those old usenet posts from June 1992 until the show's end. I've spent years reading anything I can find on "Loving" and within the last three years or so have been able to obtain a substantial set of the show's later run. 

 

I'm not overly fond of the post-Marland period until Jacqueline Babbin arrives as EP in 1990, but I really wasn't all that interested in 1991 until I saw it so things can always change. I really struggle trying to follow the show in the 1986-1988 years because its just so representative of the outrageous excess of camp and adventure that the soaps seem to embrace in the 1980s especially when it was conceived in order to combat that. I realize there are people that don't like the business plots, but I think Dane Hamond's quest to takeover AE between 1984 and 1985 was a very interesting Marland-style tale with a bunch of threads that impacted various areas of the canvas and created a lot of strong interpersonal conflicts between the characters. Nixon and Marland are very different writers, which is why I think the show struggled. The first six months or so are mostly based on Nixon's original projection for the show with some Marland additions, but after the Lily story ends and the Roger - Merrill affair is resolved the show becomes very different. I imagine it was either more collaborative or Marland had more of a say over what was going on. I think 1984 - 1985 plays very well in those old SOD synopses, but by the summer of 1985 you have things like Ava running around with a gun threatening to kill Stacey, Jonathan Maitland impersonating his brother, crazy Zona Beecham arriving, and Keith hiding out in a brothel with a hooker named Dolly. In my opinion, Nixon's 1993-1994 run is much better than the short period between Marland and Bill Levinson. 

 

 

I've only seen a little of Cece and, as I explained above, I'm not fond of her period so I don't always remember details about certain characters. I believe Cece was introduced in 1985 after Marland left or towards the end. I know Trisha and Steve originally had another obstacle, rich boy Rick Elkins, who had some feelings for Trisha. This was playing out in the summer of 1985 synopses I read, but I don't remember if Cece was already there to take advantage of the tension between Trisha and Steve. In the 1986 episodes online, Steve is serving time because he slept with Cece, who was underage. What's interesting is that I don't think Trisha was of age either. I'm curious how that storyline would be perceived by a modern audience.  

 

My understanding is that originally she was just a thorn in Trisha and Steve's side and most viewed as troublemaker during Alice Haining and Rebecca Staab's run. 

 

Colleen Dion had the longest run taking over around June 1986 and leaving in Decemeber 1987 around the time Steve was written out. I think Colleen Dion seems very interesting in the material that has appeared from 1987 and Cece definitely seems to be a precursor to Dinahlee. It seems like Ralph Ellis gives the character more dimension when he has Cece get pregnant by Steve in the spring of 1987 and then uses the baby to try to manipulate her way back into Steve's life to the chagrin of Trisha. While it was basically a replay of the Stacey/Jack/Ava situation of two years earlier, I'm intrigued by the fact that Ellis paired up Ava and Cece as friends and had Ava as Cece's confidante when she lost the baby and was planning on lying to keep Steve away from Trisha. I know Ava was afraid her part in the lie would affect her relationship with Clay, but I wonder if there was any reflection on the fact that Ava had just done this. 

 

As much as I have come to enjoy Jessica Collins as Dinahlee, I can't help but wonder what could have been if it was Cece Thompson who came back to town in 1991 working as a nanny while secretly working on Shana's payroll. Ava certainly could have used a friend with all that was going on with Paul, Carly, and Flynn. 

 

 

It was neat hearing how Millee Taggart slipped in the Kate story. That is one of the few stories from that period I'm interested in. 

 

Hearing the Laura Wright story from James Harmon Brown was interesting. I know Millee Taggart introduced Ally and that they cast Eric Goodall before Laura Wright (then Sisk). There's also a SOD article towards the beginning of the thread that says Laura tested with Ally alongside Jessica Collins and that LW thought Collins was being brought in as an Ally recast and was rude to Collins. I wonder if the contest was a chance to audition for "Loving" rather than actually getting a role on "Loving." There was also the national casting search the next year for the college set. 

 

 

There isn't much of Horan's Clay available. He certainly seems fine as Clay and plays the material well. I think Parlato gets more praise because he was good in what he was given. Honestly, the only Clay I'm not thrilled with is Larkin Malloy, but that had as much to do with the writing as it did with Malloy. 

 

Chris Marcantel mentioned they were thinking about doing an all Curtis reunion. I'm sure he must have had a way of contacting Albers. During Chip Albers run, I believe he was close to most of the male cast members to the point that they goofed around together. I'm wondering if the "Men of Loving" isn't just a rebranded version of the friends of Randy Mantooth reunion that Marcantel mentioned was coming up. Mantooth would have worked with most of the actors on the panel accept for maybe Christopher Cass. Cass is a bit of an oddity on that panel because he only worked with James Horan from what I recall. Then again, Christopher Cass has commented on Lauren Marie Taylor's posts so maybe there is more contact. Honestly, I was sort of hoping for some combination of James Kilberd, Tom Lignon, and/or Ron Nummi as they all seemed to be connected to Marcantel on social media. I wouldn't be surprised if we get another pop in video or last minute jump in from Bryan Cranston. 

 

 

I have similar feelings about the storyline. Christine Tudor Newman is spectacular in those final scenes and I'm not necessarily sure the entire storyline would be as well remembered. When Gwyn finally is forced the realization that she, not Trisha is the killer, I am absolutely heartbroken. Gwyn begging Steffi to end her pain the way Gwyn has ended everyone else is incredibly compelling. After seeing how Curtis was treated when they thought he was the killer, I was pleased to see that there was certainly a level of sympathy given to Gwyn. I'm not really sure what happened with Gwyn. I don't believe it is DID, but I do think there seems to be a level of disassociation. She is insistent that Trisha is the killer and even after realizing she killed everyone. during her clearest most broken moments, she claims she truly believed that Trisha had been doing it. I find the line from Alex about "never truly knowing what went wrong" psychologically with Gwyn rather cheap given what the audience was asked to sit through. 

 

This all happens in 1995. I believe this was around the time that most shows were starting to see a steady decline in viewership. The only show that was seeing massive growth was "Days of our Lives" which I believe hit some highs in early 1995 with the possession storyline. I think network execs saw an opportunity there but didn't truly understand that it wasn't just the possession alone that kept the ratings high. The outlandishness of possession storyline drew viewers in but there were a lot of other storylines building (Bo / Billie, Sami / Austin / Carrie / Lucas, Jack / Jennifer / Peter) that could keep the audience tuning in afterwards. I think having Gwyn (who is now in the mental health field like Marlena) going nuts was meant to goose the ratings to  deliver healthy numbers for the start of "Loving." The Angie / Charles / Lorraine / Jacob story is particularly strong and had that continued over immediately, maybe "The City" would have had a stronger start. There is no conflict with Jacob and Angie just arriving in the City and building their careers. The start of the Kayla story with her holding a gun on Angie seems such a poor choice meant to mimic the shocking stories told on the nighttime shows on FOX. While not nearly as extreme, NBC hired Jill Faren Phelps to overhaul "Another World" in a similar manner (primetime elements / serial killer storyline) and CBS did a much milder version with "As the World Turns" hiring Stephen Black and Henry Stern who flooded the canvas with much younger characters. 

 

The opening episodes of "The City" seemed rather tame. I suspect that the dead body that was found in the carpet during the move in was suppose to let the audience know that things would still be happening, but I don't think that really happened in the early episodes. With that said, the last few months are well remembered. I wonder what would have happened had "The City" survived until the arrival of "The Sopranos."

 

I believe Amelia Heinle was relatively popular on "Loving" and I believe Steffi and Cooper had developed a pretty decent following among those who were watching the show. My guess is that they were hoping to convince Heinle to stick around or at the very least to utilize her popularity to keep people watching. 

[soapfan770]

 

Anybrowser? I loved that site, it was always my go to there 1996-2000ish especially for the huge GL section Cari had. Unfortunately I think most of the daily recaps have completely disappeared off the web for good as time has gone but it still is a valuable site 20+ years later that I hope we never lose especially for GL and Loving. 

[DeliaIrisFan]

 

I wondered about the timing, not only in relation to Deidre Hall's story, but also (one of?) Erika Slezak's most definitive personality stories.  Gwyneth was clearly Loving's counterpart to Viki.  How long before this story did Gwyn become a "psychologist" (her training/credentialing seemed vague)?  At times, it seemed like Loving was emulating both of those stories at once.

For that matter, had Gwyn's paternity been a plot point before this that they decided to tie up at the end?   Gwyn being confronted by her long-lost father just after reuniting with her long-lost, amnesiac daughter was a bit much.  I had no idea Larry Haines played such a pivotal role in Loving's last episodes, but he too was very moving in these episodes.  Given the multiple assisted suicide plot threads, I was expecting/hoping for a scene with Neil and Steffi before the end.  Maybe that happened...I was still two episodes from the end?

 

 

[RavenWhitney]

I always wondered what the story was behind Marland losing 'created by" credit after he departed when his contract was up. Aggie must have insisted in their initial contract with him that his name be removed upon departure.  it doesn't seem like a successful collaboration. Marland never collaborated well with anyone really.  He was always sole head writer and wrote breakdowns. On GL he wrote all the breakdowns and had 2 or 3 script writers for most of his 3.5 years. In the early ATWT years he kept 2 or 3 break down writers and boasted in articles about how he wrote outlines and was the script editor. Control freak but I understand it. The best shows were the ones written by a creative force who maintained control.  Henry Slesar is a great example (on Edge at least). 

[Vee]

I understand people's issues with the LM or the trajectory of the show overall. I can stipulate some of it. As to one point though, I personally think the Gwyneth reveal is consistent. I don't believe she had DID or didn't really know; it's clear on some level she consciously does while trying to delude herself. She can't keep herself and "Trisha" straight while talking to Steffi, and her first bonechilling line when she's found out and Steffi asks her if she's "Trisha" is "sometimes I am." That's not DID, where Viki on OLTL had no conscious agency or awareness of what Niki, etc. did. They were not intertwined in that same way. Gwyneth knows she is Gwyneth, and Trisha is just some sort of cognitive device. To me, moments like when Gwyn tells Clay outright "Curtis didn't kill Stacey," with a very dark look on her face, or the fascinating scene near the climax where she visits Neal in prison and begins to disassociate, saying she sent "Trisha" away but she's also decided to go away and 'get some help, make some sense of all this' are quite pointed. Or when she tells the real Trisha herself not to use the candles that killed Cabot and Isabelle (a huge tell to the audience - how does she know?). Or when she keeps insisting people read her psych evaluation of the killer, or demanding the killer kill her next. On some level she knows and wants people to know her pain. I think her lucidity and understanding comes and goes, but I don't think it was DID and I think she often knew. I wish we could hear Tudor's thoughts on it, but I don't feel it was a copout in the writing - I feel it was keenly pitched, but ambiguous without being lazy. YMMV.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Vee

[Lahoma00]

I just caught up on all the posts and a shout out to everyone here...this group is amazing. Some various questions/thoughts:

 

1) @AdelaideCate007 - you are a godsend for your uploads. Do you have any more episodes? You have literally SAVED LIVES in the Quarantine!

2) @EricMontreal22 - were you able to find the LOVING bible? I'd honestly paypal/venmo you money to see a copy!

3) Can someone explain ownership of Alden Enterprises to me? Is it publicly traded? Privately owned with Cabot and various family members having differing percentages of ownership? Along those lines, anyone who can trace the running of Alden from 1983-1995 gets good karma

4) When/How did Gwyn become a police psychologist?

[dc11786]

They have got things working...

 

 

[DRW50]

Will have to watch that later. 

 

The Loving murder episodes are going back up on Youtube.

 

pannoni has also reuploaded this, I think for the second or third time.

 

 

[FrenchBug82]

My personal take on the Gwyn as a DID murderer is that it doesn't really make sense in the context of the history of the show: rewatching the episodes knowing she'd end up murdering many of those people is a jarring experience.

The reason I accepted it was because it was out of the door, it was quite a shocking (in a good way) reveal and boy did CT sold it with everything she had. And it was so good that I appreciated it very much - as an end to the show and the character. If this had been a plot during the course of the show, I would have reviled it as a plot contrivance that ruined a good character.

Also, I think the reason the Loving murders are so fondly remembered was because, of all the soaps that went off the air and I include primetime soap, this is undeniably the most coherent long story arc that has been written to wrap a soap. It was an incredibly bold choice and it was a story from beginning to end that did provide a proper end to the characters the show wanted to drop before the reboot.

Was it always well-written? No. But Loving was a low-rated cheap show. That it allowed itself to be creatively ambitious and memorable for its end is something to celebrate and considering how it often did during its run, this was actually a step up.
Thinking how so many other soaps ended a rushed damp noodle, I still think the Loving murders hold up fine.
The City, however, was a good concept on paper (changing the stilted look of a soap would certainly be at the top of what I'd try if I were to create one today) and had some ballsy ideas for the times (trans character for instance) but was ultimately, well, not very good. But the fact the spotlight on Loving at the end was on closure for the characters that would not make it over makes sense to me; as a fan I would have resented if they had used the end of Loving more as a springboard for the City. They actually made the end of Loving about Loving and, for that too, I give them credit

[DeliaIrisFan]

 

Well I can't argue with that.   Actually, as thrilled as I was that the Loving murders returned to YouTube so I could get to see those last couple of episodes that I hadn't gotten to when they disappeared, the finale was a bit underwhelming compared to the murder story.  And reading your post right after I watched them was timely, because "rushed damp noodle" perfectly described the swan songs several of the surviving characters who did not move over to The City got.  Angie/Jacob/Lorraine/Charles were the only really interesting part, and of course Angie and Jacob were the last two to leave town for The City.  In a way I would have rather seen Kate and/or Debra snap and kill their progeny (who were effectively abandoning them) than the contrived closure they got.

 

I do want to emphasize I wasn't suggesting the network/writers/producers should have used the last months of Loving to backdoor-pilot The City.  I was just surprised they invested so much energy (and promotion) into a story that was the opposite of that, for all its flaws.  I agree it would be a delicate balance not to alienate Loving fans, but I'm not sure TPTB were expecting those viewers to keep watching...or cared if they did.

[pdm1974]

Does anyone know how the ratings were at the very end of the Loving murders? Did the story perk up the ratings at the end?

[FrenchBug82]

 

Yeah the downside of the Loving murders is that folks who were not involved in the umbrella story or could not be shoehorned into it got shafted a bit.
I mean, Ava's exit earlier was so nonsensical. It could have been because LP chose not to stay until the end but as a fan of the character it was just a letdown.

So I hear you.
One great story does not erase the fact Loving was often very sloppy with its characters and follow-through.
In the end though the wrap-up wasn't perfect but at least there was an effort made when other showrunners just gave up once their show was cancelled and went through the motions.

 

 

It would seem weird for TPTB to create The City explicitly as a spinoff of Loving, despite the fact it was completely different in tone, look  and story, if they didn't hope some of the audience would carry over.
As a matter of fact, I would argue The City would actually have worked better as a completely independent show and, this is where we join, I can't imagine the "younger audience" of Loving to have been significant enough for them to think they could use that to boost The City.
But that must have been part of the plan, dumb as it may seem to us now.

[Ken R]

 

Generally speaking, yes, though it wasn't a huge boost. Loving was hit terribly by OJ. Before OJ, Loving hovered around a 2.8 or 2.9 in households. By November of 1994 the ratings had hit an all-time low of 2.0. Granted, that was also as the horrible Jeremy/Gilbert storyline was in high gear, but most likely the dropoff was OJ's fault.

 

Loving dawdled along with those awful numbers, rising and falling between 2.0 and 2.4 that spring and through the beginning of the murders. As the Murders storyline progressed and it got more attention, the numbers rose to 2.6, I believe, perhaps even slightly higher, in spite of the OJ trial wrapping up around the same time—I'd have to go back and check to give you specific weekly ratings, or perhaps someone else here has that data.

 

That number held steady for the first week of The City, after which the ratings fell back down to 2.3, and then steadily lower to what Loving had been getting prior to the murders.

 

[Ken R]

In regards to The City, I posted one of the episodes I saved a few days ago. The City was just starting to find its footing after such a rocky start. It was still really wobbly—they didn't really know what to do with Lorraine and went the stereotypical soap route at first, for example—but I found the show to get better the further away they got from Loving and Corinth.

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Ken R