P.J.

My understanding is that it's the 11th. The version (or there was a version with the commercials) with commercials references the Democratic convention, which was the week of the 11th.

Early June is what I've always heard. Unfortunately, the earliest episode available online with her in it, that I've found , is the July 11th episode.

I think Cindy Pickett left before Maeve arrived. And I don't think there's any scenes with her and Carrie Mowrey. But that kind of explains Vanessa's reaction when Ross tells her about Jackie's plane crash. Thanks!

No, they don't. Except for Trish, who at times seems to internally cringe with some of Van's behavior. Oh, and Ed, until they broke up. Even Josh dislikes her, which is funny. Sometimes I wonder if she and Jackie ever really interacted. You think they would've known each other, since they both grew up in Chicago, and Ross and Van must've been dating while Justin and Jackie were married. I didn't mean to make it sound like Van/Phillip weren't friendly, they got along. They just mostly interacted through business, or occasionally around Mindy. They weren't adversarial like Van and Alan-Michael were.

While the stalker story isn't by any means a favorite, there were times Holly was off-kilter and destructive enough to go after people. And frankly, I wouldn't have minded OGVan surfacing and ripping people new pieholes occasionally. That she never went after Nadine (even as pathetic as she was) for the Peter lie showed remarkable self-restraint, AFAIC.

Since they were never going to get that out of Raines' Alan and Zaslow was gone, the show DESPERATELY needed someone like that. Arguably, they at least tried to fill the matriarch role with Sarah and Lainie Bauer. But after Mo is gone, the best they could come up with was Meta. Now, God bless Mary Stuart, but by that time, many viewers had no connection to Meta (I'm sorry, I swear, I thought she was invented by the PTB at the time.) But yeah, I don't get why they let those kind of roles just fade away. They decided to make those the disposable six-month villains. Yes, you need new blood. And yes, your contract characters need to keep interacting. But round 88 of Phillip/Alan, or the less than impressive Alan/Josh conflict don't really create a lot of drama. Richard, Edmund, and Carmen ultimately overstayed their welcomes by YEARS. Or even decades. I guess they could say that Springfield had enough millionaires. But Dietrich wouldn't have needed to have some international empire, just enough chutzpah and money to challenge the ever dominant Spauldings.

I'm not sure TPTB see the same problems we do. While I agree the writing is the biggest problem, I think more experienced actors would have the ability to find some nuance in these roles.

Historically, Vanessa was always someone who sought to manipulate people and felt the need for control. It's why her relationships with Ross, Ed, Mark and Tony fail. (Well, Tony is never really more than a string of one-night stands, but still, she gets weirdly obsessed with him during the revolving writer debacle of between Marland and Long) As Billy says when they meet, what they both like most is having things their own way. So, I partially understood why she was more than horrified at the prospect of becoming some kind of vegetable (and Rick, with the bedside manner of a clod makes it sound as terrible as possible). The Peter situation I took with more than a grain of salt, as Vanessa would've done what was best for Peter, and in my mind, kept in contact with him off-screen. Especially as she was now also his aunt. **** and Blake would've been a much more understandable and relatable fling than bringing in asshat Ben, Ross' secret unknown brother. RME. (Much like ATWT's Bob and Susan, who screwed when Kim and John were preoccupied with Andy's alcoholism) Admittedly, Vanessa had a blindspot when it came to Bill too, when he was younger. The change in Dinah never made much sense, although it drove a lot of story through the years. Much more (arguably) than Reva's pretty much wholesome and (inexplicably) well-adjusted children. Other than Jonathan. Van does finally stand up to Dinah, but it's not until Tognoni takes over. And even then, there are times when Vanessa just doesn't get to say much about either Dinah or Bill's behavior in those last few seasons. She's there doing a lot of cheerleading for Dinah, which she mostly doesn't deserve. STILL.

Same. Well, maybe not turning into Sally, but having no real ambition (or marketable skills, other than the obvious) other than being married. (And at the end, even ol' Jeff will do.) That's why, in my mind, she's never matriarch material, in spite of dropping a boatload of children on Springfield.

I don't like a lot about this era. The writing, the tone, the casting---not a lot of it feels like Guiding Light to me. (ATWT is also going through a rough patch. There's a malaise at P&G, apparently) As hard as they tried to give me reason to like ****, I never do. He's the equivalent of Chelsea, a Reardon-in-name-only. **** doesn't have any defining characteristics---he's simply written to be the working class schmo, of the Harlequin romance variety, who's going to heal Van's heart. It may not be KMcK's fault that's the way I see him (or that his character was written), but I also don't find anything about his acting that stands out. **** doesn't do anything. It's not his fault the relaunch of the Reardons fell flat, and both Nola and Bridget are gone leaving him with only Van's circle of family and friends to interact with. (and even that is sparse.) But it really makes him totally extraneous. A fact not lost years later on Wheeler, who pretty much consigns Matt to the dustbin and hell of being Dinah's occasional talk-to. I wouldn't go as far as @DRW50 and say **** ends up defining Vanessa, but all he's really there to do is lecture Vanessa and make her feel insecure. Vanessa F-in Chamberlain knows herself, and doesn't need **** okaying when she goes back to work, or judging how much time she's spending with Maureen (newsflash, dickhead, babies crawl for months) or how she deals with Dinah. (The Vanessa I know would not have put up with Dinah's crap either, not when she'd raised Bill entirely differently, but whatever. I'd argue Dinah does a lot more to weaken and redefine Vanessa, while **** is just the parasite occupying Van's bed, but that's me.) Vanessa had fought death off twice, **** can take his lifecoaching duties and shove them. You're right---Jordan is not on a lot during this time. I don't think he's even formally recurring until after Maeve departs, as (I assume) TPTB have reestablished a trust in him, and Billy is there to anchor Bill (GL especially seems to believe any child needs at least one parent in town, if at all possible). At first they used him for the nostalgia factor, and sort of like a trump card when it made story sense. A lot of what went on with the clone didn't make sense, and wouldn't have worked if Billy had constantly been in town and questioning WTF was wrong with Reva. The only realistic alternative at this time would've been Ross, but for multitudes of reasons, that wasn't possible. I would've cast someone new, a successful business man who would've challenged Van on multiple levels. I'm not sure Justin would've worked, as the OG Justin really wasn't a fan of Vanessa's either. Maybe this would've been the time to cast a suave Dietrich Lindsey to stir Springfield up and challenge Spaulding's media division. I can't really think of an established character from the past that would've worked. Phillip and Vanessa's relationship is mostly a function of their work, in spite of the fact he was briefly married to her stepdaughter, the mother of his cousin and she was briefly engaged to his father. The only time they interact on a more direct level is when Roger is first worming his way into Spaulding. Vanessa is wary of Roger's influence on Blake, and tries warning Phillip, which he ignores. And when Roger manipulates Vanessa's firing, Phillip really stands up for her with Alexandra, to no avail. Manny Rassie (or way down on the list) ***ressa fans who I don't recall being toxic, just simply vocal (and IMO, misguided) or at least able to convince TIIC they were. How the network's smallest viewership manipulated SID polls to consistently get them and later Manny in the top five was always a bit fishy.

I think Robert was brought back due to Jordan's abrupt departure. It can't be coincidence that Josh's return coincides with Geoffrey Scott's debut as Billy. Especially when Josh hadn't been back for Billy and Van's wedding just a few weeks before.

I know the budget must be incredibly tight, but I can't help but wonder how much better this show would be with some more established actors in these roles. Particularly the men. The only standout is Andre, and honestly, if there were 10+ shows on the air, he'd have been only middling in a pack of industry newcomers.

I do wonder if, when all was said and done, Kim would've traded San Crud for some really good writing. Ah, if only Van and Ross had turned to each other. Even if Maeve had still left, at least Vanessa could've shed herself of that parasite. It's hard for me to separate my feels about Reva into eras. Earlier Reva might not be sanctimonious, exactly, but I find her incredibly self-centered.

LOL...while I find him a dullard, and a complete waste of Vanessa's time, you'd have to FF to like '06/'07. It must be '07...JvD's last year is '06. Van and **** leave in '00, and it's not until after JvD leaves that Maeve makes more regular appearances.

I think it was as much due to not wanting to sully **** up. His rather shady past (coughcabanaboycough) along with some unwitting dupe in a black market ring, or whatever it was, meant he now had to be squeaky clean for the fangurl fantasy set. Blake and Ross could be dirtier, simply because they had established histories to fall back on. Better writers might've given **** some kind of purpose outside of Vanessa, but these hacks simply wanted to keep the fanbase happy. Keeping Beth rootable was probably part of it too. They'd already made her into a bad mother. Couldn't also be a homewrecker, I guess.

I didn't see it as Van being "cold", but being principled. Had it been some kind of personal favor that Holly had asked for (ie, talking to Fletcher, or whatever) that would've been different. In Van's mind, as long as the reporting was accurate and not sensationalistic, she couldn't step in (as I remember). I can't recall Holly ever shying away from reporting the news when it involved her friends. As befits Vanessa's relationship with ****, it's all shallow nonsense, with no real character development or consequence. ****'s just being the "perfect" understanding husband, while Van's all reactionary and "unreasonable" over ****'s compassion for the poor downtrodden Beth. RME. **** is sharing private feelings with another woman. He's getting his ego stroked by that simpering snot-nosed cow. He would be livid if the tables had turned and Van was sharing intimate details of their marriage with Billy or Ross. And since I know what happens, I am unsurprised that ****'s principles fly out the window (if he ever had any, he is a sucking vortex of plot over character) when he thinks he's justified. I'm only surprised GL didn't justify a ****/Beth affair and make Van beg for her marriage back. Then again, they were already doing this with Blake/Ross, and whatever chem ****/Beth had didn't light the world on fire. Neither KMcK or BC was a real chemistry magnet, and there's rarely a point in two boring saps having an affair.

I'm not sure Kobe/Long didn't appreciate Nola. Long, for all her strengths, wasn't good at writing for the "happily ever after" phase of any relationship.

Of course there should've always been a place for Nola in Springfield. Nola might've retained more edge under Marland's writing, but I'm not sure she would have. He's the one who started Quint/Nola. And the fantasies. I'm not sure how edgy you can keep a daydreamer.

Kim seems like someone who makes up her own mind.

In Wheeler's (limited) defense, I'd have rather seen the Coopers than random newbie kids like Rafe, Ashley and Ava. Had Aubrey Dollar stuck around, I would've gladly watched her Marina.

Oh, how I wish we'd gotten to see Ross deal with his teenage sons. I loved his relationships with Phillip and Sam, but he really deserved to be seen with his own kids (other than the horror that became Dinah). The boys simply disappeared off canvas after either the Nursery Stalker or the affair with Tori.

Neither Maeve or Beverlee was going to eat into Kim's airtime. Beverlee was (arguably) already a living soap legend when she came on the show, and even Kim wouldn't have had the balls to diss her. Alex operated in a different sphere than Reva, for most of the time she and Bev's times overlapped on the show. While I never got the impression that Maeve and Kim were bosom buds, I can't recall any rumors they didn't get along. In spite of the fact Van and Reva were involved heavily with the Lewises, they aren't really directly rivals. Billy was the big thorn in Reva's side initially. The only time Van and Reva were (truly) romantic rivals was briefly over Alan, and by that time, it must've been known that Maeve was leaving. When Kim comes back, Maeve's big story is with ****. It might be interesting to know if Kim resented how well Van/**** went over with fans (not this one, but whatev...lol) , while Reva's initial return was viewed as a mess. But, that of course is all speculative on my part.

Reading the recaps is like watching an accident in slow motion, and not being able to stop it. No, the Clone and FauxAnnie aren't the worst stories ever, but they just signal the progression that's coming. This is really the point that Blake/Ross should've ended. Ben ruined them. Blake thinking Ross would return home and immediately sleep with her was just stupid. And then she expects Ben to help her with the custody thing. Both men should've told her to ***off.

Thanks. I didn't know about it. It's.....bad. But knowing Mikey could do those moves is...fun.

Watching those 79 episodes is chilling. It just reinforces what a dangerous creep Roger was. Rita having a nightmare about Roger ironically previews the Hall of Mirrors at the end of the year. ETA.. "Creep" is a euphanism. He is a predator, plain and simple.