2 minutes ago, Liberty City said:

Devon was the mistake of making him Katherine's grandson, because, due to the inheritance, it "left him without drive, without a goal. What does he want? What does he strive for? I don’t think those questions were ever asked, so we need to fix that."

Which I feel is total unimaginative BS. And kinda suspect to be honest. There’s a wealth of ideas for a young character who comes into money, especially having to defend that wealth from bottom feeders (like Colin, Cane, Tucker, the list goes on). And does Victor not have goals or drive because he has all the money in the world? Even the BLM story, while timely and certainly relevant, sounds like SSM putting Devon in his “place.” She’s right that Devon needed a goal, but his wealth didn’t preclude that.

That said, it’s hard on this show because they have to think super small. You can’t dramatize wealth that easily because you can’t show it. You watch a show like Succession and it’s so fleshed out and populated with so many small characters to show what a big company looks like. Soaps will never ever compete at that primetime level, but you don’t even have a secretary or extras at the once rarely seen Jabot or at Newman anymore.

14 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

Which I feel is total unimaginative BS. And kinda suspect to be honest. There’s a wealth of ideas for a young character who comes into money, especially having to defend that wealth from bottom feeders (like Colin, Cane, Tucker, the list goes on). And does Victor not have goals or drive because he has all the money in the world? Even the BLM story, while timely and certainly relevant, sounds like SSM putting Devon in his “place.” She’s right that Devon needed a goal, but his wealth didn’t preclude that.

That said, it’s hard on this show because they have to think super small. You can’t dramatize wealth that easily because you can’t show it. You watch a show like Succession and it’s so fleshed out and populated with so many small characters to show what a big company looks like. Soaps will never ever compete at that primetime level, but you don’t even have a secretary or extras at the once rarely seen Jabot or at Newman anymore.

Exactly. When I hear Victor or Devon called billionaires I have a hard time feeling it because the show can't really illustrate it based on budget. 

Modern soaps in a nutshell. Abuse the loyal audience with terrible story lines -- and when they finally change the channel -- blame the change in viewing habits for the cancellation.

I'm surprised network heads still interfere so heavily in soap storylines, because it's been proven that the audience will stick around for anything given how s**tty the shows are currently. 

The appeal of 20th century era soaps was that they did cutting edge material versus what you would get on prime time. Now, almost every show on television is tackling social issues. Would taking soaps deeper in that direction improve things? I'm not sure. 

Now, people probably watch daytime for it's campy yet intricate and creative long-form storytelling. Even though we've maxed out the camp factor where almost nothing feels shocking anymore, there's a horrid lack of imagination in Y&R's current storylines. It's too realistic and boring. At least B&B (as awful as it is) pushes the camp envelope with Vinny jumping infront of a cliff or Sheila's toe lol!

Maybe they need to look to true crime stories, Lifetime movies, or scandals or something to inspire their plots because nothing happens.

 

Edited January 19, 20232 yr by ironlion

7 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

Which I feel is total unimaginative BS. And kinda suspect to be honest. There’s a wealth of ideas for a young character who comes into money, especially having to defend that wealth from bottom feeders (like Colin, Cane, Tucker, the list goes on). And does Victor not have goals or drive because he has all the money in the world? Even the BLM story, while timely and certainly relevant, sounds like SSM putting Devon in his “place.” She’s right that Devon needed a goal, but his wealth didn’t preclude that.

It is B.S., and why I was so off-put by Sussman's 2016 interview. It read as "I was fired. I'm back and I am undoing everything that's been done that I hate," and honestly, Josh Griffith's efforts have felt the complete same. She was picking and choosing stories she wanted out and stories she was going to acknowledge. Devon did need a goal, but she had no vision on how to provide it.

13 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

That said, it’s hard on this show because they have to think super small. You can’t dramatize wealth that easily because you can’t show it. You watch a show like Succession and it’s so fleshed out and populated with so many small characters to show what a big company looks like. Soaps will never ever compete at that primetime level, but you don’t even have a secretary or extras at the once rarely seen Jabot or at Newman anymore.

Exactly. I mean, what happened to Gloria working as Jack's secretary? There is no one at that desk anymore. Hell, from what I can tell, no one is outside of Eric Forrester's office on The Bold and the Beautiful anymore, either. You can just walk into these offices at any given time. It's hilarious and unrealistic as f**k.

2 minutes ago, ironlion said:

The appeal of 20th century era soaps was that they did cutting edge material versus what you would get on prime time. Now, almost every show on television is tackling social issues. Would taking soaps deeper in that direction improve things? I'm not sure.

Networks still think middle-aged housewives are the majority of the ones at home watching soap operas. And most are likely DVRing or waiting for On Demand to upload the episodes. We don't necessarily need social issues, either. We just need smart writing. Nothing about American soaps are smart!

Ava vs. Esme is going to happen in regards to Esme's pregnancy. But it'll be child's play in comparison to what could be told if Disney-ABC weren't so shiny and clean. Imagine if we got something like this:

Saying you don't care about the baby? Esme mentioning Ava's parenting of Kiki again? That would never air on American daytime. Of course, British soaps air during primetime hours, but still.. that alone would be some awesome material. I'm not saying this exact scenario needs to happen, but something like this would be... refreshing for American daytime.

The problem, especially with The Young and the Restless, is that there is zero depth to the dialogue. It's all at face value with no real emotion or intent behind it. Ashley, Nikki & Phyllis vs. Diane could have been great had it been rooted... but it's just a high school-esque hallway drama-rama playing out, and it's so not worth it.

5 minutes ago, Liberty City said:

It is B.S., and why I was so off-put by Sussman's 2016 interview. It read as "I was fired. I'm back and I am undoing everything that's been done that I hate," and honestly, Josh Griffith's efforts have felt the complete same. She was picking and choosing stories she wanted out and stories she was going to acknowledge. Devon did need a goal, but she had no vision on how to provide it.

Exactly.

I remember Mal (I think it was) who tried to make Devon into this debauched wealthy party boy, and it was SUCH a flop because it was so sanitized. Just three or four goofy-looking young adults in Devon’s apartment with drinks in their hands dancing to generic music pulled from a royalty-free library.

Just now, Faulkner said:

Exactly.

I remember Mal (I think it was) who tried to make Devon into this debauched wealthy party boy, and it was SUCH a flop because it was so sanitized. Just three or four goofy-looking young adults in Devon’s apartment with drinks in their hands dancing to generic music pulled from a royalty-free library.

Yeah. That was not one of Mal Young's finer moments. I feel like Devon's passion changes with every regime. One moment it's music producing, one moment it's being the party boy, next it's running a family company. It's so wishy-washy.

I do recall Sally's initial story at Days was the Killing pool story...which was an interesting story.  However, after that concluded...she struggled at Days (except for the story where Sami was framed for killing Franco on their wedding day...where she was blamed for a crime she didn't commit.)

Generations didn't really start to gel until the last 6 or so months of the show...and I have a feeling she might have had help behind the scenes.

3 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

Generations didn't really start to gel until the last 6 or so months of the show...and I have a feeling she might have had help behind the scenes.

Any betterment at Generations was likely because of former AMC producer Jorn H. Winther, who came aboard later and by most accounts, sharpened the casting and story execution. 

5 hours ago, Chris B said:

I'll try to give some cliffs:

- First of all, she said the show has been absolutely awful since 2006 and is a shell of itself. She doesn't feel like anything can improve the show because of the heavy interference of CBS.

- The full story of her getting hired is that Angelica McDaniel called for an interview. She wasn't looking for a soap job and was working on a documentary. When they met she gave vague ideas of what she'd like to do, but she told them she hadn't watched since she left in 2006 so she'd need time to prepare before creating a story bible. She was told she'd be able to have six months without interference to write the show she wanted to write.

They gave her two months to create a story bible, but Chuck Pratt suddenly quit when he got a primetime gig and she got a phone call saying she had to start in one day. She told them that was impossible, but they said she had to do it because they didn't have any other options and she already accepted the gig.

- The Devon/Cop/BLM inspired story was her first big story and when they shut it down, that set the tone for her stint. She really wanted to tell this story and when they decided she couldn't do it, it soured the experience for her. She mentioned that the network interference is extreme and Sony has completely turned over creative control to CBS so you literally just have to do as they say.

- She felt like Michael and Lauren were neglected so a focus of hers was giving them a story.

- She wanted to make Jill's heart attack a bigger storyline, but it was difficult to schedule Jess because she didn't want to work as much as they needed her.

- Tessa/Mariah was a big problem for the network. She had to fight for them to kiss, but the network was very upset and pushed back expecting a big backlash. In the end there was no backlash, but the network still wouldn't support the storyline. She said this was the story she was most proud to get on screen.

- She wanted to expand the male canvas because too many characters were related. She loved telling the Cane/Juliet storyline, but it was another storyline that had a lot of interference that she couldn't tell the way she wanted to.

- She had a great story idea for a "Who Shot Hilary" story, but they wouldn't approve the story. 

- She watched Y&R from day one and she was part of a writer development storyline and wrote a bible which got her hired. She wrote her bible based on what was airing and Bill Bell picked certain stories directly from her bible: the creation of Lauren and Dina's return both came from her bible. She had a great story for another family, but Bill Bell couldn't use it because he'd already written them off.

- When Michele Val Jean headwrote General Hospital, she was hired as a consultant. She was excited to work there, but Wendy Riche was fired and Jill Farren Phelps wanted to take the show in a different direction so she didn't last past her first 13 week cycle.

- She's written a one hour project she'd like for streaming and has a treatment for Generations as a one our series. The Generations reboot is something she mentioned she's really going to try to make happen. I feel like the conversation about Days on Peacock clicked with her because she brought this back up multiple times. She said that Days on Peacock is a blessing in disguise and it doesn't surprise her that their audience migrated. She said she feels Y&R would struggle the most if it went to streaming because the audience is so old.

- For Days, she said working with James Reilly was amazing. He was one of the nicest people she ever worked with. She hated the Sci Fi and outlandish stuff he did, but respected the mark he left on the show. She tried to ground the show more and she used Mike/Carrie as an example of why a writer should watch the show. She said that relationship was developed as a fluke when she noticed the actors had chemistry when watching the show.

- Some of the co-hosts kept bashing Brad Bell really harshly, but she wouldn't take the bait. Ultimately they asked if she'd be willing to write for the show and she said no, but that's all they could get out of her on that subject. Side Note: I get Brad is a mess, but it was cringe constantly saying such negative things about her, knowing she can't co-sign or comment on stuff like that.

I LOVE YOU. THANK YOU SO MUCH.

 

This was so juicy. And holds up to what she said years ago....with more specific details. 

 

Wow. I would have liked to see some of that. And for what made it on air, I liked hearing how you described her thought processes.  

 

But yeah...if networks are really interfering with great story ideas in such an extreme, it's no wonder no one wants to be a HW. 

 

So a GENERATION reboot? I would be down for see Doreen again. lol. But I might have to find time and try to see if I can listen, it sounds like a writer's interview. 

 

I liked Mike/Carrie 😜 But I'm a sucker for unrequited (at first) love that turns into something else. And yes...it definitely was a case of a writer noticing things on scene and turning toward it. 

14 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

I do recall Sally's initial story at Days was the Killing pool story.

Her best story there if I remember correctly. 

1 hour ago, Liberty City said:

It is B.S., and why I was so off-put by Sussman's 2016 interview. It read as "I was fired. I'm back and I am undoing everything that's been done that I hate," and honestly, Josh Griffith's efforts have felt the complete same. She was picking and choosing stories she wanted out and stories she was going to acknowledge. Devon did need a goal, but she had no vision on how to provide it.

Exactly. I mean, what happened to Gloria working as Jack's secretary? There is no one at that desk anymore. Hell, from what I can tell, no one is outside of Eric Forrester's office on The Bold and the Beautiful anymore, either. You can just walk into these offices at any given time. It's hilarious and unrealistic as f**k.

Networks still think middle-aged housewives are the majority of the ones at home watching soap operas. And most are likely DVRing or waiting for On Demand to upload the episodes. We don't necessarily need social issues, either. We just need smart writing. Nothing about American soaps are smart!

Ava vs. Esme is going to happen in regards to Esme's pregnancy. But it'll be child's play in comparison to what could be told if Disney-ABC weren't so shiny and clean. Imagine if we got something like this:

Saying you don't care about the baby? Esme mentioning Ava's parenting of Kiki again? That would never air on American daytime. Of course, British soaps air during primetime hours, but still.. that alone would be some awesome material. I'm not saying this exact scenario needs to happen, but something like this would be... refreshing for American daytime.

The problem, especially with The Young and the Restless, is that there is zero depth to the dialogue. It's all at face value with no real emotion or intent behind it. Ashley, Nikki & Phyllis vs. Diane could have been great had it been rooted... but it's just a high school-esque hallway drama-rama playing out, and it's so not worth it.

Agreed that Y&R's dialouge is flat and doesn't reference the past enough to make charachter conflicts rooted in something.

I second that the housewives notion is outdated. Soaps need to look at who is home in the daytime. Yes moms, but also the elderly, unemplyed, night workers, etc. They need to in some way appeal their stores to whatever sexes, racial groups, ages etc, make up those demographics.

There is a youth obsession from the networks. However, Gen Z/ Younger Millenials are busy streaming whatever and largely dont give AF about soaps, unless they grew up with a family member who watched it. 

Edited January 19, 20232 yr by ironlion

Was she the one who actually came up with the idea for Princess Gina on Days? Or was she just following JER’s projections?

8 hours ago, Chris B said:

Some of the co-hosts kept bashing Brad Bell really harshly, but she wouldn't take the bait. Ultimately they asked if she'd be willing to write for the show and she said no, but that's all they could get out of her on that subject. Side Note: I get Brad is a mess, but it was cringe constantly saying such negative things about her, knowing she can't co-sign or comment on stuff like that.

My personal feelings about Brad aside, the bashing was so cringeworthy and unnecessary. You just don’t say that to not only a respected writer in the industry but one with a personal working relationship with the Bell family. I respect Sally for not saying anything, except suggesting that Brad needs a continuity consultant, which he does for sure! 

SSM's stint was the last time I enjoyed the show. I am sure Kay Alden also had something to do with it. Cane and Juliet was not a bad story, they brought Dina back, they tried to humanize the Newmans, they cared for Hilary. Gossip queen Hilary was not the best use of the actress. I can't blame them for finding the Devon Chancellor story stupid and his sudden wealth made him even more boring. The BLM story with a black billionaire as victim could be something. We know his love life has never been. 

Did her first episode start with a classic Abbott family breakfast? Even the directing was different that day I recall, it harkened back to when Y&R was the golden standard for atmosphere (not nearly as good obviously but someone was trying).

12 minutes ago, Darn said:

Did her first episode start with a classic Abbott family breakfast? Even the directing was different that day I recall, it harkened back to when Y&R was the golden standard for atmosphere (not nearly as good obviously but someone was trying).

Yes. I was very impressed at the time.

I'm not going to claim her return was totally a lost diamond in the rough, but there was a lot of potential and care there even with things the audience didn't care for IMO. I still remember her very candid interview at the time saying very few men could compete with Eileen Davidson onscreen without being blown away, that it was a longstanding issue going back decades and that they were working on it, and that the Ravi infatuation was intended to be a transitional thing. I was into that (as well as the Hilary/Mariah media feud, which was pretty poorly executed) but fans hated it immediately. Which is a valid POV. But in addition, I think another significant portion of the audience at that point had been trained to be more like an ABCD/shipper audience - the one CBS and Sony had actively courted for years - and were put off by more deliberate pacing and choices that had nothing to do with simply showcasing their favorite couples. See: Her attempt to move away from Billy/Phyllis which I believe Young interceded on, the handling of Cane and splitting him from Lily (in his only good story, ever), etc. And while I understand the optics issue, I think the Devon story would've been good. The fact is he was an even more anemic version of a 'power player' at that time than he is now.

Making Mariah LGBT - I think it served the network's interests even if they were terrified of it, because they were not comfortable with Camryn Grimes in a young leading role and still aren't. If they can park her with a chick then she isn't in the running for hot young male leads.

Edited January 19, 20232 yr by Vee

3 minutes ago, Vee said:

Making Mariah LGBT - I think it served the network's interests even if they were terrified of it, because they were not comfortable with Camryn Grimes in a young leading role and still aren't. If they can park her with a chick then she isn't in the running for hot young male leads.

Yeah they understand that the audience loves her but they don't want to see her as a lead because she's not whatever they've deemed attractive enough. Instead we have Melissa Ordway, who no one would notice was missing if they replaced her with an eggshell colored piece of plywood in a blonde wig in the middle of a scene