B&B: Bold from the beginning

[kalbir]

@Broderick I like your insights. What are your thoughts on the quadrangles? 

[Broderick]

Well, I believe the B&B quadrangle is less "confining" than the Y&R quad was.  The old Y&R quad was just a strict retelling of Le Morte d'Arthur, with John McCook as Sir Lancelot, Victoria Mallory as Lady Elaine, Jaime Lyn Bauer as Guinevere, and Tom Ligon as King Arthur, with the constant theme of Sir Lancelot (Lance) betraying the bumbling King Arthur (Lucas) with his great love for Guinevere (Lorie), and his one night of love with the vulnerable Lady Elaine (Leslie).  And as in Le Morte d'Arthur, the "one night of love" between Sir Lancelot and Lady Elaine produces a son -- Galahad (Brooks Prentiss).   To Bill Bell's credit, he didn't just blindly steal the King Arthur story and pass it off as his own work; he actually paid tribute to it in the dialogue by peppering the conversation with frequent references to "Camelot".  I specifically recall during one of the emotional separation scenes between Lance and Lorie, Lance was given the job of saying, "But Lorie, we've already had our Camelot.  Let's move forward now."  Bell didn't want to stray very far from his Camelot-themed storyline, and that limited where the characters could move on the canvas, and it also made the decisions of the characters fairly predictable and cumbersome.  

Lance Prentiss -- the character Lorie and Leslie both wanted -- was sort of a vapid, shallow playboy without much genuine development.  I suppose female viewers found him attractive, despite the fact that it appeared someone had driven a roofing nail into his chin, and John McCook's ability to play the piano and sing added a dimension that made him slightly more tolerable than Ridge Forrester.  But by and large, the sentiment I got from myself and other male viewers was, "Why are these girls pulling their hair out over this little puss of a man?" 

Lucas Prentiss was a much more interesting, likeable character, who actually seemed "nice" rather than just "poised", and his experience as a sailor made him seem relatable in a variety of different situations.  (With Lance, you expected him to call his mommy if he got a hangnail -- that's how inept he seemed -- while Lucas looked like someone who could remove your wisdom teeth with a bottle of whiskey and a pair of pliers.)  With the recasting of Leslie Brook (Janice Lynde to Victoria Mallory), the character became such a vulnerable, needy little waif, and she always looked as though she might fall apart if Lance didn't pay her adequate attention.  She basically became a mouse.  And Jaime Lyn Bauer's Lorie came with so much baggage (having tormented Leslie for years over Brad Eliot), that her previous shrieking, scheming, and breast-bouncing always made her seem far less than sincere.

Ridge is as dull as Lance, and while Ronn Moss has musical talent in the 1970s rock group Player, that isn't shown on B&B, so he just comes across as a vapid, empty-headed fool, even more than Lance Prentiss.  (Ridge works for an exclusive fashion designing company -- but does he even know how to draw, to sew, or to measure fabric for cutting? He basically just reclines around the place and doesn't appear to have a clue what's going on, much like Lance Prentiss didn't appear to understand what products Prentiss Industries manufactured.  In the early 1980s, Victor Newman snatched Prentiss Industries away from Lance Prentiss, and there was no drama, because Lance didn't appear to have any business acumen whatsoever.  Lorie Brooks made this "grand sacrifice" of becoming engaged to Victor Newman so she could recoup her proxies and return the company to Lance on a silver platter, but what was the point?  Lance would probably lose the company again in six months, because he seemed so inept and foolish.  Ridge seems equally as hopeless.  If he had to draw an evening gown, choose the fabric, measure it, cut it out, sew the gown and fit it on the model, he'd have to call Theresa, the Forrester maid, to help him, lol. ) 

Thorne Forrester, like Lucas Prentiss, is kinder and more relatable than his brother, but Thorne lacks the real-world experience that Lucas had as a sailor.  Thorne just drifts along in his swimming trunks and tennis whites as a Ridge-wanna-be, rather than having his own rugged, individualistic, unique personae the way Lucas Prentiss was shown.  Maybe Lucas could've extracted your wisdom teeth with some whiskey and some pliers in a barber's chair, but Thorne's outside-the-office skills seem limited to swan diving into the Forrester pool and slipping a clever backhand past his opponent on the tennis court.  I'd have to say that just as Ridge is duller and less defined than Lance, Thorne is likewise duller and less defined than Lucas. 

The two girls, though, are superior.  Like Leslie, Caroline Spencer is a bit sheltered and pampered and is slightly neurotic.  Unlike Leslie, she doesn't have any great talent that makes her appealing to viewers.  (Leslie played the piano.)  Caroline strictly relies on poise, her Princess Grace good looks, her ability to dress well, and her terrific posture to coast through life.  She's far more shallow than Leslie Brooks, but she's so beautiful and so poised and so easy to love, that her character flaws are easy to overlook.  I find Brooke Logan to be an "improved" version of Lorie Brooks.  Like Lorie, she's got the "daddy issues".  Lorie found out that Stuart Brooks wasn't her biological father; Brooke was abandoned by Steven Logan.  Brooke lacks Lorie Brooks' wealthy, upper-middle-class background, so in that regard she's more of a social-climbing scrabbler like Jill Foster.  But like Lorie, she's a schemer, a manipulator, and a breast-heaver.  She just comes with less "baggage" than Lorie did, because we haven't already experienced a couple of years of her trying to steal Caroline's beaus, the way Lorie tried to manipulate Brad Eliot away from Leslie even before the "Four L Quadrangle".  

I'd say the B&B quad is better overall, and would really be effective if the two men were better defined as characters.  Also, I find it a little bit surprising how easily lower-class Brooke is able to "fit in" with the group.  Caroline's politeness to her (and Caroline's lack of other friends) makes that transition possible. but it still comes across as a bit false and sort of punches a noticeable hole in the entire storyline.  You'd expect Ridge, Thorne and Caroline to attend parties where Brooke would feel completely out-of-place, or to share stories that Brooke doesn't even understand.  But Brooke just soldiers on in their world as though she's always inhabited it, and it's only Stephanie Forrester who occasionally slaps her back into reality.  The Y&R quad didn't have that obstacle in their storyline -- the Prentiss boys were wealthy and pampered, but Lucas, as a sailor, could relate to anyone.  Lorie and Leslie were both upper-middle-class girls, and the Prentiss boys were just "one step up" for them, unlike the vast difference in Brooke's background as compared with the other three players in her quad.    

Edited November 24, 2021 by Broderick

[YRfan23]

That’s a wonderful assessment!

[kalbir]

@Broderick Once again, good insights.

I'm not a literature connoisseur so I wouldn't have made the connection between Le Morte d'Arthur and the four Ls quad. From clips/episodes I've seen and what I've read of the four Ls, I noticed the contrasts between the siblings: Lance was suave and sophisticated (although John McCook has never appealed to me and I don't find him convincing as a romantic leading man, and that's on both shows) while Lucas was rugged and elemental; Leslie was a kind hearted heroine while Lorie was a jealous vixen. I also think the four Ls quad got derailed when Lance was recast with Dennis Cole; he was not a very good actor from what I've seen. During the Prentiss Industries takeover storyline, there was a scene of Lance and Victor and I could not take Lance seriously as a rival for Victor. Of course during the big cast purge of 1982 the quad came to an end without much of a resolution.

Bill Bell did use some of the character elements of the four Ls in the B&B quad. Ridge was supposed to be suave and sophisticated (Ronn Moss is another that has never appealed to me, in both looks and acting) but I didn't get a rugged and elemental vibe from Thorne. Caroline was a kind hearted heroine and Brooke was a jealous vixen.  The B&B quad also got derailed by a recast (Thorne with Jeff Trachta), and by an early announced departure (Joanna Johnson) and a real-life pregnancy (Katherine Kelly Lang). Bill Bell ended that quad quickly with Ridge and Caroline's marriage and then set up Brooke/Eric and Thorne/Macy.

Edited November 25, 2021 by kalbir

[Althea Davis]

Bold is a masterclass in greek mythology. 

[Videnbas]

Do you have any examples? I agree it sometimes has the general feel of Greek mythology but I haven't been able to pinpoint that many specific myths, other than my impression that Eric/Stephanie are Zeus and Hera, and a bit more far-fetched comparison between Caroline and Helen of Troy, which would make Ridge Paris and Thorne Menelaos. I also see Stephanie as a bit of a Cassandra because she is usually right about how things will turn out but nobody believes her.

[DramatistDreamer]

Looking at the first year of this show and honestly, Stephanie and Ridge are the only characters whose sartorial choices seem to hold up as looking stylish consistently all these decades later. Eric would have made it if not for that stupid belt/suspenders combo, which, for a designer, is beyond the pale. So far, Clarke hasn't been bad, except his apartment is hopelessly 80s with those balloon sculpture wall-hangings and that stark Miami Vice of the West decor. I won't even get into the others with big hair (Kristen), bigger earrings (Margo) and boxy suits (Caroline, Thorne) and whatever that mud color contraption they had Brooke in (although the first dress that Ridge gifted her could almost be stylish today (with a few modifications). Except for the wedding, where the Logan's all looked good, their choices are dull, lack style, which I guess is what privileged people think middle and working class always wear. Rocco, well, he is a walking MTV 1980s billboard, lol.

Stephanie's wardrobe choices were highly stylized, but they work. There are those episodes where she's wearing white, and she looks like someone out of a "leisure" scene in The Great Gatsby. Stephanie/Susan Flannery just looks like those women who, even if their lives are a total disaster, always look put together, so elegant.

[sheilaforever]

They also gave LaFlannery quite a lot of exquisite jewelry to wear to fit with those costumes. In the closing titles there is often the product placement hit of jewelry by Stephen Dweck.

[DramatistDreamer]

She wears it with ease. Overall the sartorial choices for the character are as timeless as one can get, especially for the 1980s. 

It's interesting but, although I am focusing on B&B, quite a number of grande dames on the soaps are styled in a timeless way back then, not following trends like many of the younger characters. Because of this, their wardrobes stand up the best against the ravages of time. Yes, the jewelry helps too. As The World Turns often had Harry Winston and Cartier jewelry. Depending on the character's wealth, whether they came from "old money" or "nouveau riche", the opulence would span understated or extravagant. 

In this particular instance, because of the fashion backdrop of the actual show, I have been really attuned to the clothing choices and the fact that the show debuted in the late 80s, which could be a harsher period for fashion, at least where the masses are concerned. I think Stephanie weathered this time period relatively well. Others on this show, not so much.

[DramatistDreamer]

 

There used to be a thread with a listing of popular music used on soaps. I can't find it but if I could, I'd add Al Jarreau's "After All", which appears to be the theme song they're going with for Caroline and Thorne. They've used twice now--arguably, it's the same scene since the second time is in a flashback.

[Soaplovers]

Logans were dressed middle class/working class...so it makes sense their clothing is more practical then the Forrester's.

And I like the bigger earrings..though the hair is a tad too big..but much better than the limp lifeless look of today.

 

[MissPalmer]

I loved the Logans and their house in those years! Pure soap!

[DramatistDreamer]

You can be working class, practical and still stylish. I grew up in a working class family and everyone dressed pretty stylishly, even in the 80s as a child, I noticed this.

[Videnbas]

I made a comment on a 1987 episode on the official Youtube account a few weeks ago, and to my amazement I just realized I have been shadowbanned from Youtube ever since!

(All I did was comment politely that the episode dates were wrong, hardly offensive by any standards. Could it really be that the people managing the official account reported me for pointing out their mistake? Or am I being paranoid?)

Has anyone else experienced this problem? It's a bit sad suddenly being unable to comment on the episodes on Youtube (or any video at all).

Anyway, sorry for the OT post - I just wanted to vent my frustration, and perhaps give a word of warning to those interacting with these videos on YT. Only goes to show this right here is a far superior site to discuss classic B&B!

Edited December 14, 2021 by Videnbas

[DramatistDreamer]

@Videnbas Wow, that seems extreme! 

TBH, I was never quite sure of what a shadow ban was, so I finally decided to look it up.

You pointed out something that was amiss. It's really not that serious. It's not as if others hadn't noticed, everyone pretty much knew that the sequence of videos could often be out of order. They could've just corrected it and kept things moving.

Unfortunately, I can't say that I am surprised since I have seen soap fans sometimes get up in arms over a critique, as if it will sink the entire series. 

I do wonder if someone made an error and felt pressured to cover their tracks. You'd be surprised by how some people in the entertainment field can chastise people for the tiniest of errors, just ask anyone who has ever worked for Scott Rudin.

It's not always convenient but posting here, rather than under the video on YouTube is your best bet for uncensored discussion. Unfortunately, I am already beginning to see "Stan Wars" between various factions (Brooke fans vs. Caroline fans) in the comments section and it's utterly ridiculous. One of the more embarrassing elements of soap fandom, and there are already enough to go 'round.

These episodes are over 30 years old and people are fighting over who Ridge loves more LOL.

Edited December 14, 2021 by DramatistDreamer