I think it's a fantasy to show these uber rich white people never mentioning race when one of their lily white kids gets involved with a person of color.  That's not the real world!

1 minute ago, Ponds said:

I think it's a fantasy to show these uber rich white people never mentioning race when one of their lily white kids gets involved with a person of color.  That's not the real world!

If they actually treated the POC love interests with the same depth and care as the white ones, I’d be a lot more forgiving.

The parallel with The Bachelor is interesting because I do think part of the fear is not just antagonizing the "80 white women" (lol) but also opening a Pandora's Box they can't control.
The minute they start tackling this, other issues regarding *their* own behavior and choices become more fair game. VR's criticisms, their writing choices, the personal bigotry of some of their white cast... It is really a hornet's nest.
At least right now they have the excuse that they are avoiding it altogether. Ironically, the minute they try to do better, they run the risk of *everything* being litigated, including things they don't want to try and change.

14 hours ago, prefab1 said:

I think the most frustrating thing is that if the show just did a little more to delve into the things that viewers notice, like Lily's tendency to date white men, it could make for so much more interesting stories and compelling dramatic conflict.

 

For instance, here's an idea I literally came up with in 10 minutes: Let's say that a younger darker-skinned black woman from a working class background (more like Lily's mother Dru) comes to town and applies for a job at Chancellor Communications. But Lily decides not to hire her because she thinks the young woman doesn't fit the "classy" image of ChanceCo. (For added drama, this young woman could even be a previously unmentioned Barber cousin). And when this young woman finds out that Lily was the one who blocked her hiring, she goes off on Lily, talking about internalized racism and colorism, bringing up Lily's history of exclusively dating white men, and so forth. And then Lily gets angry, and she's complaining to Devon about what this young woman said to her (like "Can you believe she thinks I'm a racist?") but then Devon calmly suggests that this young woman might have a point about Lily's internalized biases. And so on...

 

That sounds like a great story. It's a story that I would not only want to watch as a viewer, but as a writer, one that I'd like to write if I were writing a soap.

 

This is a really compelling discussion you are all having in this thread right now. I've been missing out, lol.

@FrenchBug82
made some very good points as well.

 

 

Funny enough, I could see that conversation, argument really, happening between Dru and Lily.

 

5 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

That sounds like a great story. It's a story that I would not only want to watch as a viewer, but as a writer, one that I'd like to write if I were writing a soap.

 

This is a really compelling discussion you are all having in this thread right now. I've been missing out, lol.

@FrenchBug82
made some very good points as well.

Funny enough, I could see that conversation, argument really, happening between Dru and Lily.

The scenario that @prefab1
described.

 

Edited March 18, 20214 yr by DramatistDreamer
It's been a long day and perhaps I should not be typing on this phone.

7 hours ago, BoldRestless said:

It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy because the show is so stale and boring that there's no new viewers coming in or old ones coming back, so they have to fight even harder to keep the little audience that's left, so they become even more afraid to do anything that might offend anyone...

 

It's also become particularly difficult for the show to avoid this obnoxiously vocal minority with the advent of social media. Just yesterday they posted a PR statement on the attack on the Asian community and the comments section is littered with conservative Facebook grandmas going "JuSt StIcK tO eNtErTaInInG aNd DoN'T gEt PoLiTiCaL" or "EvErYtHiNg Is NoT aBoUt RaCe". God forbid they make integrate any commentary about this into their writing. 🙄

 

On the note of showing solidarity to the Asian community, how's Keemo doing nowadays?

1 hour ago, ChickenNuggetz92 said:

On the note of showing solidarity to the Asian community, how's Keemo doing nowadays?

 

I am passably irritated that Peter Bergman's distaste of the story seems to have been an obstacle to mentioning Jack has another son and presumably grand-children at this time.
Asian grandchildren of a core family! What a easy lay-up to improve diversity on the show. So stupid.
I kind of understand why they can't really bring Keemo back - since he had a rule against dating anybody who had dated his father (his ostensible reason for going back to Vietnam was finding out Mary Jo had dated Jack) he couldn't be in any relationship in Genoa City. They're all relatives or exes of his father.
But I hope we get Jack's grandkids at some point. I didn't like the Vietnam retcon but it is part of Jack's story now, like it or not.

17 hours ago, KMan101 said:

Being too skittish to tackle these topics IS (another aspect) what has helped kill these shows. You can tackle "hot topics" in ways that aren't even noticeable to the casual eye. It's just about making the effort. When they try it's shot down. 

 

CBS and NBC seem to have ... diversity problems. Which, considering the toxic environments we've heard about there, this is really no surprise. I still think a certain man at Sony isn't called out enough ... interesting how he's over both Y&R and Days. Just saying. Although Days, SADLY, does better, so ... CBS?

 

I'm also tired of them catering to a very very small section of the audience who just happens to be loud on Facebook.

 

I was thrilled Paulina called out the lack of the diversity in Salem. SHE'S RIGHT. I knew a certain section of the so called audience would flip out and right on cue ... they also showed themselves when Deidre poosted a photo of herself with Jackee, which was likely deliberate so they'd show their asses and was likely in support of her.

 

And may I remind everyone, Leo on DAYS played by Rikaart, was "too gay" for executives. I'm just saying. There's a big problem in daytime. They have no idea what they want to be and they're too afraid to be anything but what they think "we" want. They have no clue. 

 

There's also another section of the audience of all the soaps that seem unwilling or unable to call out bad crap that these shows shove out to us. It's that they're afraid to be critical because that somehow means they'll cancel the show (or they just don't care).

 

Oh, and of course there's the even smaller section that only watches for a couple or a character and flips out when they aren't the focus, taking it out on everyone else who dares get airtime or comes back to the show (Franco stans are showing their asses on social media). 

 

And finally, there's the other group that seems to want a Hallmark movie and they don't seem to have any idea how a soap opera works. They just want couples holding hands. And then when you call them out for it, they get defensive and totally move the goalpost.

 

They're trying to cater to all of these and failing. If they even try at all. It's time to just ... write.

 

Frankly, with such mismanagement, it's actually amazing we even have four soaps left.

Excellent post that says it all.

 

 

23 hours ago, prefab1 said:

For instance, here's an idea I literally came up with in 10 minutes: Let's say that a younger darker-skinned black woman from a working class background (more like Lily's mother Dru) comes to town and applies for a job at Chancellor Communications. But Lily decides not to hire her because she thinks the young woman doesn't fit the "classy" image of ChanceCo. (For added drama, this young woman could even be a previously unmentioned Barber cousin). And when this young woman finds out that Lily was the one who blocked her hiring, she goes off on Lily, talking about internalized racism and colorism, bringing up Lily's history of exclusively dating white men, and so forth. And then Lily gets angry, and she's complaining to Devon about what this young woman said to her (like "Can you believe she thinks I'm a racist?") but then Devon calmly suggests that this young woman might have a point about Lily's internalized biases. And so on...

Your story idea is ok, but I’d never give it to Lily — and I’d expect CK to be horrified at playing it.

 

It’s just that the story would severely harm what the audience thinks of one of the show’s heroines, and that’s never going to happen. I don’t think a daytime soap is built for a long-term character leading that storyline.

 

And yes, I do realize Lily likes white men. I also agree that’s awkward and not a good look when she’s had multiple relationships. However, a woman of color dating white guys is not racist. It just isn’t.

 

I have a much bigger concern about Y&R islanding black characters. And no, Devon’s sperm in a white girl is not something to be happy about.

Imagine Mariah, Elena, and Amanda all being pregnant by Devon at the same time... I wouldn't hate watching how hilarious that would be. 😂

LOL if all three of them were pregnant at the same time. I'm tired of baby stories but I'd watch that.

 

I feel like they could kill Abby off in child birth and give the baby to Devon and Mariah to raise together. Boom, done. Ashley gets a grandchild to replace Abby and Mariah and Devon get a Newman/Abbott/Chancellor/etc. spawn to raise. Just a thought. LOL. Everyone wins.

 

I do think Abby is recastable but I almost feel like they've given up. Reminds me a bit of Jennifer on ATWT.

 

Elena isn't pregnant yet? I'm shocked they didn't go there. Guess they decided the bland blonde gets to give birth.

3 hours ago, ranger1rg said:

Excellent post that says it all.

 

 

Your story idea is ok, but I’d never give it to Lily — and I’d expect CK to be horrified at playing it.

 

It’s just that the story would severely harm what the audience thinks of one of the show’s heroines, and that’s never going to happen. I don’t think a daytime soap is built for a long-term character leading that storyline.

 

And yes, I do realize Lily likes white men. I also agree that’s awkward and not a good look when she’s had multiple relationships. However, a woman of color dating white guys is not racist. It just isn’t.

 

I have a much bigger concern about Y&R islanding black characters. And no, Devon’s sperm in a white girl is not something to be happy about.

 

Aren't Elena and Nate basically extras at this point? It's ridiculous and insulting. 

 

CK would never play that. It's not a bad discussion to have but they never would even though they should. It's sad our first thought is "they never would". When they USED to. And it was often addressed in different ways so they COULD do it. They just don't bother or care. Or are told not to.

 

I was watching some AMC from 1988 and it's really quite brilliant how they tackle HIV/AIDs (and addressed the fear and asked hard questions). You'd never see something like that today.

Edited March 19, 20214 yr by KMan101

From Doug Davidson's twitter

I just want to thank you again for all your support. But I think I am done. After 43 years I am treated like a day player. No bueno.

Part of Y&R's problem in the last 12 years is that too often they have written for the actor and not the character as they're supposed to do. It's why the stories have become so awful.

13 hours ago, ranger1rg said:

Your story idea is ok, but I’d never give it to Lily — and I’d expect CK to be horrified at playing it.

 

I tiptoed around it but yes. I think CK is part of the reason they are making... choices when it comes to the remaining black cast. In particular why Lily is paired with white men.

I have no proof and I am not suggesting something icky. But it is clear to me

the fact CK is "passing" is both helping her be in interracial relationships that have been off-limits when they tried with other characters of color (note too that an AA woman has been allowed to date white men but the outcry has been too much when they tried to pair an AA man with a white woman... enough said) but also hindering the show from going deep into exploring the AA experience more explicitly.
Which brings us to this very good insight...
 

28 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Part of Y&R's problem in the last 12 years is that too often they have written for the actor and not the character as they're supposed to do. It's why the stories have become so awful.

Victor turning into an all-powerful all-knowing always-winning mustache-twirling villain is the best example since this is entirely Braeden's demand but I fully agree that it is a disease that has spread to most of the character writing.
Sometimes to their self-detriment. Michael has been reduced to a annoying day player because they have gone way too far in incorporating ClB's jokey persona into the character when it used to be subtle wit as part of a layered character.
It also worked the other way around: Billy Miller's personality was what made his version shine and when they switched actors, that character became a dull and dark a**.
And they are making the same mistake with Sally. Everyone can tell Courtney Hope is a wonderful actress and a charismatic girl but they are relying on that to carry whatever nothing that is the story so far. That's not enough. 
They need to write characters.

 

3 minutes ago, FrenchBug82 said:

I have no proof and I am not suggesting something icky. But it is clear to me

the fact CK is "passing" is both helping her be in interracial relationships that have been off-limits when they tried with other characters of color (note too that an AA woman has been allowed to date white men but the outcry has been too much when they tried to pair an AA man with a white woman... enough said) but also hindering the show from going deep into exploring the AA experience more explicitly.

I think you’ve hit on what a lot of people have shared over the years. CK’s light skin, etc. has opened her up to pairings (and rivalries) that Mishael Morgan, Loren Lott, or Angell Conwell never would have had. Being in Cane Jail sorta obscured those advantages (even though, of course, he was white). But Y&R clearly sees her as palatable enough to the aging white audience to be a lead. She’s seen as formidable enough to go up against another longtime (white) lead, AH’s Victoria. 

She barely interacts with her black family at all, and her mentor is her dead white best friend’s mom.

I’d also point out the obvious that while the show is willing to have a lesbian couple on the show (even though they’re rarely seen doing much together), it’s a no-go when it comes to two gay men in a committed relationship. 
 

Y&R is so afraid of 75 year old Evangelical women freaking out that they won’t go NEAR it. Hell, they won’t go near adding ANY gay male to the show.

 

And yes, since it’s center is the fashion industry, B&B is worse.

8 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Part of Y&R's problem in the last 12 years is that too often they have written for the actor and not the character as they're supposed to do. It's why the stories have become so awful.

 

Spot on

10 minutes ago, ranger1rg said:

I’d also point out the obvious that while the show is willing to have a lesbian couple on the show (even though they’re rarely seen doing much together), it’s a no-go when it comes to two gay men in a committed relationship. 
 

Y&R is so afraid of 75 year old Evangelical women freaking out that they won’t go NEAR it. Hell, they won’t go near adding ANY gay male to the show.

 

And yes, since it’s center is the fashion industry, B&B is worse.

 

I've often wondered if B&B's hesitation is really Brad Bell's. Vinny and Thomas don't count. That's Maria Bell bullshit.

Edited March 20, 20214 yr by KMan101