The Rose retcon worked for me, and I’m not usually a fan of either retcons or making everyone related. But it was a rare instance where I thought it worked. It gave Iva and Lucinda good material too.

 

Of course, Rose quickly wore out her welcome IMO.

This thread has made me realize what a deeply confusing, yet fascinating time the early 00’s were. In soaps, in politics, in fashion, in pop culture...

 

When all is said and done, it’s hard to even say how this era will be remembered. The beginning of the end, or is it much more complex than that?

I think he also needs to be given props for trying to develop the black characters more. Granted, nobody was really satisfied with the Jessica/Marshall storyline, but it was a daring thing to do for the time. Actually, I couldn’t see a soap doing that today. I think he was trying to stretch the limits of the genre as much as he could.

 

I think if I rewatched 2001-2005 I might have a newfound appreciation for some of it that I didn’t have at the time. I did see some scenes from around Rose’s death recently, and it was head and shoulders above what would come later...

1 hour ago, Faulkner said:

And it defeats the point of soap. If you want arcs neatly tied up, you have a lot of other places that do it much, much better and with less wasted time. That soaps have given up on long-term storytelling is an admission of irrelevance. Why even bother?

 

I think the  soap writers today would call it 'being topical', LOL but you're right, it's really writing irrelevant fare with little to no lasting impact going forward.  It's hard to believe that this was the same genre that used to write stories that would impact characters (sometimes profoundly so) for at least a decade or more.

 

21 minutes ago, Khan said:

He didn't "dive into Lily's past" to make Rose an identical twin.  He retconned one of Douglas Marland's finest stories in order to explain away one of Leah Laiman's cockamamie ideas that should've been left off the page altogether.  Don't get it twisted, Martha.

 

I think Byrne was just grateful to be busy, at that point and as Rose, to have a reprieve from the brown outfits she always wore as Lily.  Seriously,  David Canary, Julianne Moore and Anne Heche probably had soap opera actors jones-ing to do double roles in search of Emmy rewards.

#HeatherRattrayForever

5 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

I think the  soap writers today would call it 'being topical', LOL but you're right, it's really writing irrelevant fare with little to no lasting impact going forward.  It's hard to believe that this was the same genre that used to write stories that would impact characters (sometimes profoundly so) for at least a decade or more.

 

 

I think Byrne was just grateful to be busy, at that point and as Rose, to have a reprieve from the brown outfits she always wore as Lily.  Seriously,  David Canary, Julianne Moore and Anne Heche probably had soap opera actors jones-ing to do double roles in search of Emmy rewards.

Not to mention, Erika Slezak and Vick’s alters...

I mean, actors are human. They like being front and center.

1 minute ago, Franko said:

I mean, actors are human. They like being front and center.

 

I think the best actors are the most generous ones though. Maybe that's the theater-head in me.

13 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

I think the best actors are the most generous ones though. Maybe that's the theater-head in me.

I have to agree.

He must have had so many health problems related to his size. Far too young to die.

Hogan has some good months and moments on ATWT but he collaborated with some of the most seasoned writers who fleshed out the show unlike Marland who did not collaborate; his staff were sub-writers under him. Hogan needed Culliton and Passanante to translate his big story ideas into soap telling.  It worked for a while.  He fed ideas and crafted individual stories and fed them to MAB on Y&R.  His stint on Days was Higley-esque. It was a disaster. Horrible.  RIP. If you want to read a rather dramatic and soapy (and self-aggrandizing) eulogy, head over to Tom Casiello's twitter or FB page.  Poor Hogan was a hot mess but of course, the eulogy is all about Tom.  

Edited September 30, 20196 yr by RavenWhitney

3:10 in - have to laugh at Mimi saying Martha Byrne told her Sheffer did story the same way as Marland did...

 

 

I'm I the only one that hated Rose and her existance hogwash of iva not remembering?

56 minutes ago, BetterForgotten said:

#HeatherRattrayForever

 

At first I thought she was totally miscast but gradually she became a favorite. She added more layers to Lily and I love how she was used in the business world. Don't get me started on how great it was to see Lily turn against Barbara. I could see Heather's Lily without Holden or any other man. I couldn't say that about Martha's Lily. I truly felt crushed when Rattray left ATWT.

Edited September 30, 20196 yr by Soapsuds

1 hour ago, Soapsuds said:

I'm I the only one that hated Rose and her existance hogwash of iva not remembering?

 

Nope, lol!

 

And her showgirl BFF (Mitzi?) was no basket of joy either.

3 minutes ago, Khan said:

 

Nope, lol!

 

And her showgirl BFF (Mitzi?) was no basket of joy either.

I hated Mitzi too. 

3 hours ago, Franko said:

Forgive the generalization, but the soaps aren't a genre that's meant to be where failed film or nighttime ideas/personnel belong.

 

If anything, failing in films proves you can't cut it in daytime either.  How am I, as a viewer, supposed to trust you with a story that's told over a span of several weeks and months, if you've shown me you can't sustain interest in one that runs just two hours (or less)?

 

People forget that, before he began writing for ATWT, Hogan Sheffer had transitioned to a job at DreamWorks as Director of Screenplay Development.  Because, in Hollywood, those who can't, note to death those who can.

 

6 hours ago, Faulkner said:

Flashback to Hogan Sheffer’s 2002 New Yorker profile.

 

Ah, yes.  The "legendary" article where, the NY'er writes, Hogan realized soaps were about plot.  "Endless, frustrating, complicated, gripping plot."

 

Except...soaps aren't necessarily about plot, Hoagy.  Soaps are about characters.  Frustrating, complicated, gripping characters.  A new viewer might tune into this-or-that soap for the first time because of a STORY; but, if the writing is good, they STAY because of the CHARACTERS.

 

THAT is how you build a loyal audience, Hoagy.

Edited September 30, 20196 yr by Khan