AMC: Tuesday, September 13, 2011

[Skin]

Did I say any of those things that Babe did was right? Have I ever? No. Babe did her fair share of wrong as well and they were still perceived as wrong when she did them and the audience hated her for it. They still do. Does this magically mean that David is right for his actions because Babe was wrong? I don't understand that logic what so ever.

David may be written as a villain. This however doesn't excuse his actions. They are still morally repugnant. I don't get how his actions get amnesty because other people are bad too or because he is expected to do horrible things to other characters. He is still wrong and still deserves to be called out for his actions. I don't get this straw man argument that because David is bad no one can call him out as being such. Nor do I understand how when he does do deplorable actions it's somehow hand waved away by fans/audience/characters because well it's David. No reason to be bent out of shape about it. :shrug:

Yet when 'good' characters like Tad do something horrible they are flayed alive because ...well....they were "good".

He is a hero in the same way Todd and Sonny are. The show portrays him as being the dark horse, byronic hero who is self destructive and needs the love of a good women to "tame" them and show them the right way. The show has done this numerous times with JR first with Babe then with Marissa. He can do tons of bad things but he is still seen to be redeemable in the end. Why? Because some young heroine or ingenue sees good in him. It's impossible for him to be all bad. The show did this when he was sympathetically written with the Miranda/Bess situation and we were expected to cry with him when she was taken away from him. The show made him sympathetic when Dixie came back from the dead and chose to stay away with him instantly making him the victimized abandoned son and automatically exciting audience sympathy from that bitch of a mother Dixie. Richie existed solely to make JR a victim, white knight him and throw Babe back into his arms. He was sympathetically written for when he was given cancer. He was seen as the long greiving widower when he lost Babe and she died. So on and so forth. The show has most definitely made him a sympathetic character and stacked the deck in his favor various times. Which is why I find it so hard to bare the comments from his fanbase where they say he was never treated well and he was never portrayed as being sympathetic.

What?!

JR is a an anti-hero with shades of protagonist villain written for good measure to make him 'well defined' and 'three-dimensional'.

No show willingly gives a character cancer (the old sympathetic soap stand by) if they are supposed to be complete unsympathetic monsters. If you want to see monsters on AMC look at Micheal Cambias or Richie Novak those were true villains for AMC. JR is supposed to be seen as the long suffering hero who suffers because of his own self defeating, self destructive antics. We are supposed to feel sorry for him every time he implodes because he really wants to be happy but just doesn't know how. tear sniffle

JR is AMC's answer to OLTL's Todd and GH's Sonny/Luke.

Those are more white knight straight forward soap heroes. You could add Ryan to that list too. JR is the damaged, bad boy, anti-hero in shabby armor. You could argue Zach is that too.

I don't think David is supposed to be seen as bad. I think he originally had good intentions for what he was doing. Like I said before concerning David saving people isn't a bad thing in theory I just hated how he went about pointlessly needling people and causing pain just because he could. Now though I think he is crossing moral event horizons in willingly letting Zach die and not doing anything to stop it. Any doctor with a medical license would find that deplorable. Again this man is a doctor and that is probably my biggest problem with it. Even Josh did everything he could to save JR though they were hated enemies, and even though JR nearly killed him and was going to try to hurt him and his family. Josh still chose to save him.

I'll just say I don't see how JR is any better then Zach or Ryan. If anything I quite honestly believe he is the worst and most offensive out of the three of them.

[R Sinclair]

Sit down.

LMAO @ "That's it." As if you just told somebody something after creaming yourself over "Ooooooh, LB said she's gonna write for my D&E... Oooooooh!" Now that David isn't being written according to your whim, all of a sudden he's irredeemable? Something tells me he could've wooed and dry humped Erica in his lab... and STILL do the "disgusting" things he did and you wouldn't be so judgmental.

Ladies and gentlemen, the soap fan TPTB have given up with trying to please. Those with flimsy whims!

[AllMyDaysatGH]

All the stories have died down and today's episode had this "beginning of the end" feel to it

Kendall and Greenlee's scenes were really nice, I don't agree that these were the first scenes they've had where they were good as friends. I think they've had greater moments as friends than the ones today. Even though I've always never liked or believed them as friends that much, I think think AM and RB have always sold it well, thanks to their close friendship in real life. I will, however, always prefer KenLee as fierce rivals!

I cannot express how much I love & enjoy Shannon Kane and Natalia. Great, poignant scenes between her and JR Martinez today. He did a really fantastic job today recounting that Iraq story. I wonder if it was really true to him?

Krystal and Liza are better as rivals but I'm actually glad things ended on a good note between them. There's really no point or reason for them to spar against each other anymore.

I always loved Krystal and Babe's special quote "We deserve the best and together we can get it", loved when Krystal brought that up today and it was nice when she looked at Babe's picture. I'm looking forward to seeing her one last time.

[R Sinclair]

Then tell me what the hell does "the ideal flawed good girl" mean? She committed unforgivable acts, yet she's just a flawed good girl. Yet JR and others do equally heinous acts, and they're not to be forgiven?

Please... You put it out there... Explain that. I'd really like to know. And I won't inject my opinion about the fact that you have a crush on Alexa Havins, which is why HER Babe is a "good girl."

[Kylie]

R Sinclair, you really do have quite set opinions and what you think is right for someone who watches less AMC than I do. I mean, you even consistent days at this point? Or is this once a week wisdom you're imparting?

[JaneAusten]

Skin in all due respect JR in no way is anything like Sonny or Todd. I want to you show me the epsiodes where the entire canvas run around singing his praises or excusing his behavior the way these 2 characters get. SOnny runs around now but its ok now because Sonny has a mental disorder. People think SOnny is getting his due and being called out with this new HW but even when his actions cause harm the show tells us either through his enablers or due to the fact that Sonny is bipolar that hes really not the disgusting drug pushing mobster he's always been. When this happens for JR tell me and not one person has ever used alcohol as an excuse for him before we get into that debate. I won't even start on One Mysognyists Life to Live about todd Manning and his parade of enablers starting with his own kids. GH and OLTL are the same way we are supposed to see how great it is these guys get called out when they have their parade of excusers already lined up. The one thing about AMC that is for better or worse than these other 2 shows is at least the women in general are not paraded out to excuse the behaviors repeatedly of people like JR and David. I won't get into Zach and Kendall thats a dynamic all its own. And before I ge called on it I have not seen Tad or Dixie once this go around excuse anything JR has done or is doing. Trying to help someone is not excusing its helping.

As for David, I don't see him the same way as Tad or Zach or others and I don;t see the same noble actions or decisions or him making the right decisions. David makes decisions for his benefit and always has for the most part. And no I don't care. Hes not that person. Hes had moments of humanity along the way so I don't get this idea that david has to grow or hasnt show some semblence of morality on occassion. BUt this show does not or never has held him up as the moral compass. THats for people like Ryan or Zach which is why when he's pitted against them, I don't care. Zach especially.

As for this Zach business with David, he only followed the plane because of Greenlee but he did save Zach or did he just leave him dead? I am not saying what he did was noble but he did save the man regardless of the circumstances and who cares if his reasons were noble or not. I guess if you are looking for David Hayward to be a hero or anti hero type, thats not the role he plays on this show . In the end I would assume David will pay the price by dying or going to prison which he should to be honest. Call me when Zach goes to jail for killing 2 people.

[DeeeDee]

Pretty much.

[Skin]

I have always felt that Babe was more or less a good person who was put in horrible circumstances and because of her circumstances she acted poorly. If you look at Babe's motivations she never tries to hurt anyone. Her intentions are never to harm. She is forced into situations by other characters usually and she makes poor choices as a result of stress or other external problems. Sometimes they are from her own making but other times they are not. Babe at her core though is a good person and we've seen that more times then we haven't. That's why she is a flawed good girl. Because she doesn't do everything perfectly, she is messy and she has baggage and she does bad things at times but her motivation is always to do good. She doesn't like doing bad things, she doesn't like being evil. Most of the time when she is put into that role she suffers for it in some way.

Character Motivation: Forced into poor situation, forced into being bad, has internal conflict/crisis of faith because she is doing bad things.

Conclusion: How in the world exactly is this an evil character who only wishes to do harm to others?

Babe is Krystal's daughter. Krystal raised her and so she sees the world in in the way Krystal taught her to see it. I think Babe at her heart is a good benevolent, charitable person and we see that for the most part when she is in her regular every day mode. This doesn't mean that she is necessarily a strong moral character nor does it mean that she is an exemplary pillar of goodness. She is flawed and she is human. Babe wants to be good but it is her circumstances which usually get in the way of that. That to me is what makes her rootable. That is what I mean when I call her the ideal flawed good girl. Because in the ideal situation she would be a strong heroine like Dixie, Angie or Bianca. If she had a steady hand to guide her and teach her right and wrong and give her conviction in her righteous ideas and her righteous self she could have been a true heroine. Sadly she is not. She was written in between being that of an ingenue and an anti-villain. I personally find her grey soap qualities interesting for better or worse.

Are you talking about me personally? Or are we talking about audiences? Or writing? JR is forgiven for everything he does, he doesn't even have to be sorry about it. The reason I personally hate JR is because I find him to be a hateful individual who only wants to cause pain to the people around him. Even when they try to help him and are trying to do right by him he ends up either trying to kill them or nearly doing it by "accident" in his haze of rage. He feels no sympathy or empathy for other characters. Add in that he is misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted, hateful and damn near misanthropic and you have an entire host of reasons why I find him to be the most hateful, vile, disgusting, offensive character on All My Children. I hate everything that his character represents about society and the world because he is the sole embodiment of all things wrong with it. This wouldn't be so bad but he also has no justifiable reason to be this way. It's damn near irreconcilable that this filth came from the insides of Dixie Cooney.

Babe is nothing like him. She is actually very kind, tolerant, tries to understand people, is generous and is more or less a good person who loves people and is willing to go to bat for them even if they are not popular with the in crowd (Richie, Amanda, Josh, Zarf/Zoe, Janet, etc.). Babe has proven time and time again to be a charitable person who cares about others. Babe isn't evil. Even at her worst we saw her suffering internally and having to be talked into doing bad things by other characters.

JR is a homicidal maniac. A tried and true example of an over privileged, white, male sociopath who has nothing better to do with himself but destroy everything around him and then have the nerve to ask for help when everyone is barely standing due to the complete wreckage he has caused them. He is poison. He has nearly killed like tweleve or more people due to his actions, neglect or some combination of assholery and "vengeance".

Going full circle in how David fits into this, I don't believe he is necessarily irredeemable. But I do think that he at the very least deserves to have his medical license revoked and he needs to never practice medicine again. A doctor being complicit in a murder plan and not giving a damn about it goes against everything a doctor is and should be. David took an oath to do no harm and to do everything in his power to save and help people. I'm sorry but he doesn't deserve to practice medicine any longer. I can't think of a single doctor who would agree with his actions. Let alone do the same thing.

Dixie, Babe, Kendell, Bianca, Jaime, Adam, Di, Erica, Annie, Colby, Marissa, and more have all at some point defended JR to other people and excused his actions. You can't say that he hasn't at some point had supporters in his corner for him.

They even had Babe forgive him for trying to kill her. They had Dixie guilt her about the fact that she was putting JR in jail. As if she some how forced JR to try and kill her. And we are saying that isn't enabling? There's nothing left to even say after that. There are no words. JR most certainly does have defenders. Dixie even called Marissa and tried to get her to get Little Adam to come and visit him and Marissa was willing to do that prior to JR black mailing her with the sex tape. We had Erica tirading about the fact that she was happy JR would get Little Adam. We had Bianca play the worlds smallest violin for JR so that he could wail about how Babe betrayed him by sleeping with Josh. We had Kendell agreeing with JR's choice to throw Babe out of Bess' life while she was sexing him all over the apartment. So on and so forth.

I'm sorry but JR is definitely supported in his asshattery.

I don't think David bringing people back from the dead is selfish. I actually do think that comes from a good place mostly. But YMMV.

[jams1234]

Well for me David gets amnesty b/c the story does not make a lick of sense! Should have figured as much would have happened & it is so not surprising now that Zendumb is involved. That out of control short yellow Zen bus has killed, maimed and harmed so many it's sickening.

Now it's as if the idiot abusive Zach did not know anybody was after him and David was supposed to warn him and keep him from getting on the plane?? WTF? && Didn't we just hear a few weeks back that Zach ASKED David to "save" him and keep it from Kendall?? I'll answer that...yes yes we did!!!

So.... as we've been told for months ...nearly a year... Zach knew he was in danger ...Zach brought the danger with HIS dirty dealings.... Zach left his family in danger ...and went boom. Too bad so sad...though not for me as I literally popped a bottle of champagne that BLESSED day !

Also given that David saved his worthless stinking life ..David did his part! Good enough for me!

Are we to believe if David stopped Zach from getting on the plane the casino goons would not have found another way??? Zach needed to handle his own thug related dealings...it's not up to David to fix Zach' problems for him! David did what David does...saved the thug after he was injured. It's not David's fault Zach is a thug and also stupid. If Zach is so powerful, rich and wise than why couldn't he figure out the plane was rigged? Why does David need to fix his problem for him ...or warn him of danger that Zach already knew existed ???

IMO David did Zach and his idiot wife a favor...not only did he save Zach but b/c the goons thought they got Zach thus crisis adverted. Oh but wait Zach left info for Kendall endangering her. Guess that's David's fault too? But oh wait again ..David saved her long torso butt too! So all is good for jams!

David=Hero..Life Saving Smart Miracle Worker.

Zach=Thug, Abuser, Stupid Idiot, Killer, Brooding Animal ..specifically a PIG & DOG....a hybrid of the two if you will!

Also I don't know anybody that watched David from DAY ONE...that would label him as nothing more than a villain...FROM day one!

No way!!! David IS a villain especially recently ...but he has also been so so much more! But alas Zen gets involved and now what should be David's story now revolves around Mr. Thug Mumbles and his Twit wife and others must be trashed to make their stupid story somewhat work!! Nope.... not having it....I'll just continue to love all of AMC and it's characters... and dislike the sick wretched havoc bringing rage inducing yet dull duo that is...Zendall!!!

&.....I think I'm slightly falling in wub with you... R Sinclair!!!

[Khan]

Who are you talking to, R? Kylie or Skin? (The arrow directs me to Skin's post, but I think Kylie's the one who said it.)

[Kylie]

LOL, oh no, might that be directed at me? I'm sorry if I upset the great one. Wasn't my intent.

[Skin]

The quotes may have been mixed up. But I am sure it could have applied to me too.

[EricMontreal22]

I know many disagree, but JR has always kinda made sense to me--even with the over the topness of many of his actions (that list someone posted of all the people he almost killed, for example). Not a huge Ryan fan to say the least, but I can also kinda buy his obnoxious hero-complex issue. But Zack, at least since 2007 or so, has just kinda driven me crazy--for all the reasons you say (I admit I didn't mind him at first--with "Maureen", or even when he first married Kendall where for the first few months I found them a surprisingly likeable couple. That didn't last--and all the stuff like shooting Josh and demanding his heart, are just too much--and I admit that for a variety of reasons I could handle this whole OIrpheus story a lot better before Zack's return.

Wait, wasn't the abortion in 1971?

[EricMontreal22]

Remember back when they'd play songs that people actually, well, knew? Funny watching old 80s episodes when they even play big radio hits in the background on the radio, etc, as well of course as the rarer montages. Oh well, that seems like the least budget issue to argue, and I did like today's montage a lot.

Agreed, Tad and Krystal have an easy rapport with one another. I was hoping Kendall would have a brief mention of her own homelife with Alice when Greenlee mentioned her childhood, but overall I really enjoyed the episode. An extremely low key, character episode. I was a bit confused as to why Jake was feeling his malaise, although he has gone through a lot supporting Amanda I guess--but I even kinda appreciated them saying in a roundabout way how Ryan has the ridiculous hero complex. (But who the Hell is looking after Emma? Eve Opal should be having some "quality time" with Sam...)

I think it's too soon to say we won't see more fall out from Project Orpheus, for good or bad, but I appreciated the break from it.

And yeah Liza/Krystal seemed ridiculously sped up, BUT all thigns considered due to time problems I can forgive that, and liked them chatting together. I've never had issue with NH as Colby (I have had issue with some of her stories though), but it was great seeing her with DC.

I think, for good and bad, we will definitely get David/PO fall out and it's too quick to say that it's all been tied up off screen.

[EricMontreal22]

I don't think JR has been shown as a hero since Young took over the role, to be honest--at least not after the first few months. But I do think his motivations and background are clear and make some sort of sense (I know others on here disagree--so be it).

I agree David is a villain, although I do think sometimes the writing has worked to make him more subtle and even sympathetic--great stuff like the fall our of Leora's death for example with Anna, or even since LB's returned I do think having those inteactions with Angie, etc, help make the character more interesting than the Machiavellian mustache twirler he has been portrayed at other times.