OLTL: Discussion for the week September 27

[DeeeDee]

Oh please.

[Soapsuds]

Haha...Message it to me at FB...or post it on your FB acct.

Yeah..I hate seeing young actors getting plastic surgery so soon.

I know you can come up with a good one concerning KZ first day on....DeeeDee.

[Dr Neil Curtis]

I know..............just cruel and mean.

[Cheap21]

Ugh! I hated it. Tess thratened to have Tina's daughter killed. She was wrong but she was threatened and scared for her child's life. Todd? He only kept quiet to save his own skin. I hated how Viki banished Tina out of her life yet gave Todd a free pass

[DRW50]

While I get the idea that Viki is more supportive of Todd because of his past, Todd's present is being some kind of a void. Instead of playing into that we are apparently just supposed to think that Viki, like everyone else, supports Todd because he's awesome.

[Vee]

There is no sane reason to want or support Todd after 2008. Which makes any story, particularly any love story they attempt to tell with him since extremely hollow. Todd has no empathetic reaction to anything or anyone. He didn't bat an eye at Rebecca last year. Tea (and Blair) only pursue him because of the dysfunction within themselves; Tea has never been able to get enough of his abuse. He could do anything and she would always come back. What he did to Marty meant less than nothing to her so long as she got to be with him again. Judging by the horrible triangle last year, maybe Blair would too but at least she pulled out. That's why I find these stories since so hollow no matter who he's with.

While Todd and Tea was never really my bag, the original storyline from the '90s was at least built on a lot of emotional bonding and Todd didn't do anything too horrible during their courtship (except for murdering Guy Armitage, but Tea just shrugged that off). This time around, there was no bonding, no meeting of the minds, no long discussions about whatever. It was just sex and bitching back and forth and a return to old patterns and old addictions for Tea - while Todd got a willing woman who would excuse his latest horrible act. There was no intellect in the story, no decent writing, some good acting from FL, but I see no foundation or inner life there at all. There is no how or why to why they are together other than she was the only woman who would have him, so why not. Todd and Tea are together because RC wants them together and he doesn't have time to make anybody root for Todd again after the rapemance so we all better just get over it and think the way Tea does - that it's all good because Todd is great in bed, and bada bing, it's true love we swear. Their country club wedding last fall was a joke because of this horrid, lackadaisical approach. It's rote and FL's talent as an actress can't make up for an empty story. Same goes for today with Blair once again chained to Todd in court. Who cares?

[Khan]

I'd agree with this, except given Todd's own history of sexual abuse, I refuse to believe he's completely functional in bed. Blair and Tea just fall over themselves over him, b/c neither can tell good dick from bad.

[MontyB]

I totally agree. There is absolutely no reason, but his fan base will tell you otherwise.

[TeamEric]

Pardon me, I find it endlessly amusing when anyone questions the sanity of fans supporting Todd Manning at ANY TIME during his history.

The reality is many fans found "sane reasons" to get over the gang rape and dead baby lie. Rapemance trails by a very wide margin those two horrible crimes. The dead baby lie ranks as his worse crime ever, including the gang rape, because the victim was an innocent, newborn baby. Abusing a child is far worse than abusing/raping an adult women.

As for T&R, Malone wrote out Rebecca to make Blair instead Todd's first love. It's been Rebecca who to Todd for 15 long years, and that sucks but to blame it on post-2008 Todd is patently absurd.

Personally, I found any mother taking back the man who threw out her newborn baby earns the champion title "never able to get enough his abuse."

And Blair didn't pull out of the triangle, she was so soundly rejected she went into a snit, bit Todd and vowed to split him and TnT. She went so far as to commit fraud and make up huge lies to keep them apart. Finally faced with reality that Todd still loved Tea, Blair at long last was forced to accept that reality.

I trust Flor's far more honest take here, both women lack in self-esteem and recognize a kindred spirit with similar dysfunction and self-destructive streaks, in Todd. They are drawn to the darkness in Todd because it matches on some level, their own.

Actually TnT spent four months together bonding before they ever even kissed again. They spent a lot of time talking out what Todd did and why he did it, and where he could go from there. They became friends again, partners while working on his case, rebuilding some foundation of trust again before they admitted any feelings for each other.

First, as for making Todd rootable again post -rapemance, RC did a better job than Whitesell/Malone did post-DBL. Both those writer refused to honestly address Todd's complete and utter lack of remorse over dead baby lie in their rush to reunite T&B. Both chose to ignore that it destroyed Todd's humanity, and wrecked his last redeeming quality, his affinity and protective streak for innocent children.

Todd's suicide attempt, even if driven solely to make Marty care for him again, and Starr withholding her love for months, were bigger penance than he ever paid for DBL. Starr in 2002 kicked Todd's kneecap over DBL then promptly embraced him back. Viki just rolled her eyes at him over DBL versus in 2008 she let him rot in jail and wrote him off until Tea convinced her otherwise with suicide news. Todd is also suffering karmic payback in this faked death of his lover, he's walking in John's shoes.

As for the all powerful RC, we surely know from watching his KISH onscreen every day and JARLIE still married and in love, that RC ALWAYS gets the pairings he wants! I find the argument patently absurd that Todd/Tea are together solely at RC's whims. At ABC, Frons rules the pairings not ANY writer.

Todd and Tea are together because they have a long, complicated history that re-ignited old fans last year and many new fans enjoy watching them. There will always be those that hate them and don't get them. That's true of any pairing, and especially Todd's.

[TeamEric]

Very few people in Llanview think Todd's awesome. Todd gets treated like trash by ALL of Llanview's "good people" except for Viki who is judged too biased to really see him for whom he is.

The superhero of Llanview on the other hand, John McBain, can break any law, treat all his women like crap and no one calls him out on that. Well, except Clint did recently get to point out John's own lousy history with women. THAT made me smile but then Clint is hardly the moral arbiter of Llanview these days and alas the rest of the "good people" think John can do no wrong.

[Vee]

I'm not talking about Todd's fans, I'm talking about characters on the show.

All those things were horrible and a new low at the time. But nothing Todd has ever done has ever been as much of a rejection of any progress or character development as the rapemance. It annihilated a character who had been a favorite of mine for years and years. There is virtually nothing left but the name.

This might be an acceptable excuse if not for the fact that Rebecca hadn't been back in 15 years. She came back in '09. They had a huge chance to assign her the weight they knew her character should have, otherwise why bring her back? They knew she had importance to Todd's history. They just chose to use her as a stock henchwoman. It was a dreadful recast paired with Powell, who got all the attention. It was name-dropping, nothing more, and what could've been a great storyline was absolutely dreadful onscreen.

You won't hear me defend that, but I'm not playing tit for tat. The subject was the rapemance and Tea, in, I think, that order. I've freely acknowledged the fact that Blair is as much of a sucker. The difference is Tea didn't even seem to be bothered by what he did when she came back. And at first that was great because in her early months back they played her as a merciless, remorseless shark who didn't care about anything but Todd and winning. Then they decided to make it twoo wuvv. There is no true love for Todd after the rapemance. The only thing Todd loves is himself and his sense of power and control.

Actually, I think Blair opted out. It was her single moment of dignity, possibly in the entire year. But again you're missing the point. This is not about Blair vs. Tea, this is about what the show has done to Todd and why no love story for him is remotely viable.

Of course that's true. I think the difference is in Tea's extremely aggressive pursuit. Blair at least attempted to remain disgusted with Todd for a while after the rapemance before the writing completely gave out for her character (again). When Tea returned she simply did not care what he'd done to Marty or Starr or Hope. She wanted him and she wanted him out of jail and she would tear anyone, Marty, Starr, you name it apart to make that happen. I don't offer it as a moral judgment because I vastly prefer Tea when she is amoral and immoral. In that mode the character is extremely entertaining. What I dislike is when they then try to retroactively rewrite those actions as actions of pure love and high-minded.

What bonding? She got him loose and they fucked on every surface in town. Where was the bonding other than Tea saying over and over that hey, you're not so bad without giving any context or reason for feeling this way? What trust? Todd and Tea have spent years not trusting each other, which is what led to the Danielle fiasco and later to their break-up and finally to her keeping her cancer from him. They have failed to re-forge a decent bond, because they decided the sex and dysfunction was enough. It's because they don't trust each other that the sex and the rage and the power games between them are so good to them.

What does that have to do with anything today? Sure, I hated the treatment of that storyline and the way they handwaved that crime. But two wrongs don't make a right. The rapemance was Todd's nadir. It has destroyed his character for many viewers. He is an unrecognizable husk of a character, and this is not Tea's fault and I am not blaming her or that pairing. I don't identify the rapemance with Tea, so why does it seem as though you're trying to make it an issue of Tea vs. Blair? Because she took him back? The rapemance would be indefensible no matter who Todd got with afterwards. If Blair and Todd had reunited today I would still be tearing the terrible writing for it and the fallout today, and I don't care about Blair and Todd together anymore. In this case it just happened to be Tea, and afterwards their reunion was built on sex and a remorseless assault on anyone who would stand in the way of Todd's freedom. Then that was retconned into being acts of love. The original Todd and Tea story, while not my bag, was a lot more honest about them than that.

Todd jumped off a building and survived. He slept in his own bed that night. So what? How is that penance?

[TeamEric]

Same response, how did characters find a "sane" reason to get past gang rape AND throwing out a newborn. There's no real sane answer except it's a soap.

The HUGE difference is viewers and characters always knew Todd was very capable of RAPE and he never once in all his history stopped abusing adult women.

There had NEVER been before any sign of Todd hurting innocent children. NEVER. It rejected the character's one redeeming quality, his affinity for innocents and children. The Todd who defended even enemy Andrew's little boy was long gone. The Todd who was scared to hold an innocent baby like Starr, afraid to taint her with his monstrous self, was lost forever with "get rid of it." Worse, Todd never showed a lick of true remorse like he has for hurting Marty.

We'll never agree on this, Vee, because dead baby lie drove me for the first time ever to feel sympathy for Blair and turn on Todd. The way it was excused as an act of some sick love, swept under the rug AND especially combined with RH's Goofy Todd soulless acting, drove me away from this show for years.

Finally, DBL is the bigger mistake b/c it opened the door for writers to pen Todd willing to KILL Margaret's unborn BABY. Viewers knew it was possible b/c no longer did Todd have ANY affinity for innocent babies and children. That's a bigger line in the sand than Todd's preying on Marty. Again.

No argument, it was a slap in the face to Rebecca and T&R fans. But I guess I'm used it to since Malone slapped me up the head so much telling me Todd's first love was Blair not the Rebecca story I watched.

But no argument, the KAD stuff was pure crap.

Blair's biggest objection to rapemance was Todd rejecting her and the kids to pursue his fantasy with Marty - that's what tossed into his face in jail and again in his home.

Blair was outraged over Todd's plot to steal Starr's baby, ITA. But if Blair ever had an honest moment with herself, she'd have admitted when Todd commits a crime that AIDS her like covering up her attempting murder Max or nearly killing Asa for her, she cheers. When his crimes hurt her, she cries foul.

As for Téa not being bothered at all, she and Todd had several long talks where she tried to understand where he was coming from. What she found was that Todd had built this fantasy in his head that if he could get Marty to love him, even under false premise, there was some real good in him. Mostly, I don't think Téa was all that surprised that Todd abused another woman.

Substitute gang rape, and that exact line been thrown in Todd fans' faces for decades. Todd's always been about power and control. Anyone who thought otherwise wasn't watching the character and writing very closely all those years.

Anyhoo, rapemance is a distant 3rd on Todd's list of "unforgivable" crimes so if fans could get past 1 and 2, a distant 3rd isn't an insurmountable problem.

With Blair, it was same old pattern. She gives lip service to being disgusted with Todd, acts all high and mighty self-righteous then when she inevitable wants him in her panties again, then all his crimes are just swept under the rug. It's been her pattern for decade, nothing new there, so I fail to see her written out of character. It's Blair, she's forgiven Todd far worse acts against herself and children.

And nothing new on the Téa front either. She admitted to Viki very early on, she shouldn't still love him but couldn't help herself. That's her pattern too.

No disagreement Tea would have mowed over anyone to free Todd. That's the return of the real Tea Delgado, who didn't let anyone stand in way of freeing her clients, from day one with Antonio. With Todd, she was more motivated than ever before. She sank to manipulating Starr, which was the only out of character act.

Téa did it to save Todd's ass because she loves him, always has. For her efforts, she got slapped multiple times and became the town pariah for loving low-life scum like Todd.

You obviously missed 4 months of story. Todd and Téa spent months talking and bonding before ever having sex. Discussing what happened with Marty, how wrong it was, and his need to reconnect with his kids. She dragged that man out of a dark, depressed state back to the living. Todd learned to trust Téa would have his back again and was his true friend.

Téa for her part, couldn't bring herself to trust Todd, thus she kept the Danielle secret from him. That was the problem in a nutshell for TnT last year, Todd completely trusted her but she didn't trust him. The cancer story was about her learning to trust in Todd to come through for her for once.

We obviously saw those 4 months differently so gotta agree to disagree.

Personally, I saw more jump off the Todd fan bandwagon over dead baby lie than rapemance.

I repeat my argument, Todd abusing adult women is his decades long pattern.

However, Todd abusing innocent children only started in 2001. Worse, it started him on a downhill journey where writers could pen him abusing kids including his own daughter.

Suicide, something Todd had contemplated before but never actually followed through with, was a sign of how seriously unhinged he had become. He jumped to prove to Marty how much he loved her, he was that NUTS. It served as a wakeup call from the fantasy in his head that Marty would forgive him and they'd have a real shot.

It literally WOKE HIM up and he then tried to follow Viki's advice, go back to where he was returning from Ireland, what saved his soul then? Starr. So he tried to reach out to her at Hope's grave and finallly expressed some real remorse. It was a crack, an opening that there was something still worthwhile inside of him.

[EricMontreal22]

This is getting icky, but it's actually often quite the opposite--people who have grown up being sexually molested often learn to get quite good with sex as they've learned to use it to get what they want. A good many of the "best" porn stars, prostitutes and others in the sex industry came from backgrouns of sexual abuse.

Anyway