HBO: Game of Thrones

[Vee]

Jon has never been infallible, but then again no one on the show is anymore. Ramsay was already beginning to lose his grip on the North before he lost at Winterfell. Sansa did the right thing but it forces her to parlay with Littlefinger, which is unavoidable. Tyrion had a good idea negotiating with the slavers, but they came back and sacked the city, forcing him and Daenerys to forge a third way involving dragons, incineration and leaving only one representative alive. At best the more heroic characters do the best they can. Jon is no diplomat or schemer, but he is a good warrior. He just needs to learn some of his sister's (cousin's?) cunning or leave that end of things to her.

[Juliajms]

Let me be more direct. He really got his ass handed to him this time. Before that time he was murdered he was being set up as a pretty good leader. I'd say that leadership is at the very least questionable after the Battle of the Bastards. I'm not sure I would be lining up to follow him after what we just saw.

 

Honestly, I can't criticize Jon for trying for Rickon.  If he hadn't, I don't think viewers could see him as the shows hero.  It would make him look small and maybe like he didn't try save Rickon because they are half brothers and Rickon is the (possible) heir. So ultimately, I came away from this episode seeing Jon as more hero than leader, which makes me wonder if he will outlive the show.

[Vee]

Oh, for sure. He's lucky to be alive. But I don't think most heroic leaders - especially relatively young ones like Jon - would necessarily have known how to handle that situation differently. The show has portrayed him as a born leader on a hero's journey (they don't have to be mutually exclusive) triumphing while also making mistakes, and here he did both. Whether he will live to be a leader vs. a hero long-term is, as you say, an open question.

[DRW50]

I have not seen all of it, just bits and pieces, but last night's episode, and the general repetition of Jaime's story (reminding us again that he will never move beyond Cersei and their toxic love) and the Dorne mess (where any attempts at peace or sanity result in brutal slaughter), the Arya journey (where she ran away to Braavos only to learn that what she was clinging to for identity was just death and emptiness), and the treatment of Theon (where he escapes only to repeatedly be reminded of all of his failures and weaknesses, shamed for years-old slights by "good" [what a joke that is] characters like Tyrion, and also told that all he needs to get over torture and abuse is to stick his digits in the nearest orifice) seem nihilistic to me. I may have missed the more optimistic moments. 

[Vee]

I think you have a dramatically different perspective on the point of both Arya's and Theon's storylines this year versus what's actually been intended or IMO produced, but you're never going to see it my way so I'll try to leave it at that.

 

I will say I don't think anything about either storyline is about nihilism, emptiness or jokes. Tyrion took a few shots at Theon because he remembered being mocked himself, that's about it. And I'm not sure he has any idea Theon was castrated, but as for Yara she's not exactly a soft touch either, coming from the Iron Islands. That being said, this is a medieval world and for all her rough edges she loves her brother. That's been proven for her whole run but especially this season. And Theon is the one reminding everyone of what he's done - he did it again last night.

[DRW50]

I'm not criticizing Yara - she's not a therapist - but the intent of the scene. The tone of it led some people to assume he was going to end up killing himself and that he was realizing living as he now is is completely pointless (beyond supporting his sister's claim). I don't know if that was the show's intent or not. But that type of thing comes across to me as more nihilism and futility than optimism. Again just me, and maybe that was not the show's concept at all. 

[Vee]

That's... a new one on me.

[DRW50]

It's a pretty common end for depressed or traumatized people who are basically just told to get over it. There have been a number of scenes this season that suggest he has no identity beyond trying to help Asha and I'm not that surprised if people assume he will kill himself at some point. Whether that's the show's plan, I don't know. 

[Vee]

I just don't think we can measure the Greyjoys of the Iron Islands against a modern, progressive scale of how to deal with people and trauma. This is a medieval world and theirs is an especially brutal, harsh culture in that fantasy world. Despite a few blunt remarks, Yara gave Theon the love and support she understood how to give him. That's her character, even when it's sometimes ugly, but a kind of tenderness was also shown between those two not just in that episode, but in others throughout this season.

 

I don't believe any of the scenes suggest Theon has no identity beyond Yara, but I think the narrative is clear that he might prefer that. Those are two different things. He certainly does want to give himself over entirely to her effort to take back their home and lands. And that's his choice and I think it's a valid one as he struggles to rebuild his own sense of self-worth. The rest will have to come in time, if at all.

 

Because really, what else could he do to feel like a positive contributing member of any society? Why not? She told him not to kill himself if he wanted to make a difference, and he does want to. So he's there. That's the most therapeutic treatment anyone from his culture and his world can hope for. It's more nurturing than he ever got from his family. Several of the Starks gave him love and acceptance but he could never fully accept it because he was always keeping one eye towards home, and he betrayed them because of that insecurity. Now he and Yara are doing all they can - the best they can with the emotional tools they have.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Vee

[Juliajms]

I'm pretty sure Tyrion was shaming him for killing the Stark boys. That's a little more than failure and weakness.  At the risk of sounding like Stannis, the fact that Theon was tortured and saved Sansa does not change the fact that he did have two (other) little boys killed. He also made a poor job of hacking off an old man's head and got countless other men, woman and children slaughtered. Those kind of behaviors may result in feelings of worthlessness and suicidal ideation.

 

I'm with Tyrion in not exactly falling over myself worrying about Theon's feelings.  It also seemed pretty clear that Tyrion had no idea what Theon had been through. He thought he was still addressing the same cocky bastard he left behind at Winterfell.  If all Theon gets is a little shaming going forward, he should probably count himself lucky. If I were Jon Snow, I wouldn't be feeling especially merciful towards him considering how many people just  died brutally to get Winterfell back.

[DRW50]

 

I got the impression that he was more upset over Theon calling him an imp (although the show chose to rewrite that original scene and make it seem like Theon said a lot more than he actually did). Given that Tyrion continued to work with his sister after she slaughtered infants, and never gave a damn about Jaime shoving Bran out a window (and I think he may have even mocked Bran for being paralyzed), I have a hard time believing Tyrion would be outraged. If he was then it was certainly a highly selective outrage on his part.

 

As for Theon - no, I don't pity him for Tyrion trashtalking him. No, it isn't anything Theon doesn't deserve. I'm just annoyed that this particular character - who never really faces any consequences for anything he does (including cold-blooded murder of a woman he claimed to love) - was there to take the moral high ground. It's unearned, it's dishonest writing, and it ruined what should have been compelling scenes.

Edited June 21, 2016 by DRW50

[DRW50]

 

Using that logic, then Sansa would also be killed by Jon, given that she kept quiet about reinforcements and had a direct role in their deaths. Of course the show will likely gloss over that because they needed their surprise ride into battle shots for the 5th time. 

 

Jon certainly would be within his rights to kill Theon, but it's not something I would trust them to put across. Not after the way they wrote Brienne's "revenge" for Renly last season, which, among many many other flaws, did such a poor job in filming the final scene that viewers were completely confused and Gwendoline Christie had to clarify in interviews that yes, she had killed him.

Edited June 21, 2016 by DRW50

[Juliajms]

Cersei didn't have those children murdered. Joffery did. He did not mock Bran. He tried to help Bran overcome denial, by mocking himself. The murder of Shae was anything, except cold blooded. It was clearly done in the heat of passion after she lied to help get him the death penalty and screwed his father.  I'm starting to doubt you really watch this show.

 

Sansa didn't even know that those forces were coming. She also didn't psychologically torture the people of Winterfell, kill little boys, hang there bodies up for days to scare people into submission or betray Robb. She didn't make the small folk watch while she hacked off a guy's head. She didn't open the door to Ramsey's rule by taking over Winterfell. So you're really reaching by trying to equate Sansa holding back a possibility of help to all of Theon's crimes. But sure, Tyrion is the bad guy here and it's Theon's self esteem and identity issues that we should be worried about.

 

I'm going to have to leave the discussion there, because I just can't relate in any way to your thinking.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Juliajms

[DRW50]

 

Given that you don't remember Sansa writing Littlefinger for support (which means that she had a huge hand in the deaths of those soldiers, even if she is not the same as Theon in this situation), I have the same doubts about you. Or I would if I needed to take a shot about a poster just because we disagree. I guess I just can't relate to your way of thinking.

 

I mixed up some of the book stuff and show stuff with the Lannisters. I apologize for that. It doesn't change my main view, which is that Tyrion only cares about child murder when it suits him - which, up to this episode, was absolutely never. So I find his objection as tiresome as everything else about him.

 

 

I never said Tyrion is a bad guy. I said he has no moral high ground. And he doesn't. He never has. He never will. He's a cold-blooded killer, an enabler of abuse and murder, including murder of babies. I will never, ever see him as better than Theon or better than a majority of the characters on this show. 

 

 

I guess that's just my loss. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by DRW50

[quartermainefan]

 

Sorry, reading your posts I don't see any of them make sense.   First, Tyrion didn't mock Bran, he actually gave him a saddle and peptalk to get him moving.  Next, he didn't kill his love Shay in cold blood, he killed her most hot bloodedly in a rage when he saw her in his father's bed.   He was still in love with her when he told his father if Tywin referred to her as a whore he would kill him.   Tywin did, and in a moment Tyrion couldn't take any more and killed him.  None of this was cold blooded.     I am not sure what compelling drama you see ripe for viewing between Tyrion, a star of the show, Theon the guy he shared one scene with five years ago, and a character probably nine out of ten people know as "Theon's sister".    There was no compelling drama to be had there, they just threw in the scene to bring characters together.     They had nothing to talk about and share no topics in common save Sansa.