I like JT punching Deacon, but I hope they don't go too far and turn him into what Carl likes to call a typical Sheffer alpha male. I wonder if Joshua Morrow ad libs the dudes or are they actually written in the script.

I think JT's a long way off from that. This was just a long time coming. I don't know if they care enough about JT to make him a Sheffer alpha male. If we get a he raped her but she liked it story, then we'll know.

I do hope they come up with a good story for JT. Luckinbill is a decent actor and he's still very handsome, getting moreso with age. And he doesn't have greasy hair, or weird facial features, or bizarre tics.

Ryder looks very malnourished and pouty, and that hair, which looks like he is on his way to a Spandau Ballet reunion...Casting these hard-faced, scrawny men and passing in role after role just blurs things together.

I have this intuition, from the dark circles under Ryder's eyes, and the fact that Wilson Bethel DJs until late at night, that he is (at least) a very heavy smoker.

Bethel was apparently in Generation Kill, and apparently did a good job in it. If that were the case, I think I would have preferred to see him as Chance (the role he was auditioning for). I think he could have played haunted-by-war better. Driscoll plays the military discipline/respect part fine...but I don't see the shadows of war in him. (On the other hand, I think Clementine Ford plays the shadows of Darfur just fine).

I have this intuition, from the dark circles under Ryder's eyes, and the fact that Wilson Bethel DJs until late at night, that he is (at least) a very heavy smoker.

Bethel was apparently in Generation Kill, and apparently did a good job in it. If that were the case, I think I would have preferred to see him as Chance (the role he was auditioning for). I think he could have played haunted-by-war better. Driscoll plays the military discipline/respect part fine...but I don't see the shadows of war in him. (On the other hand, I think Clementine Ford plays the shadows of Darfur just fine).

Darfur must be murder on your hair.

I think they just cast Driscoll as Chance to remind us that he is the "good" (ie, boring) counterpart to "bad" (ie, interesting) Billy. I don't think they had anything in mind beyond using Chance to prop Billy/Chloe.

I would have rather seen him as Chance, I just don't care about more Fisher-Baldwin siblings, and it's getting to the point where almost all of the younger men on Y&R are all kind of odd. I mean I still think they have a few potential non-creepy or weird younger leads, but Daniel dresses like he's on his way to Lilith Fair, Chance is dull, Noah rarely appears, and JT, you never know whether they have any plans for him or not. I wish there were more balance.

I have this intuition, from the dark circles under Ryder's eyes, and the fact that Wilson Bethel DJs until late at night, that he is (at least) a very heavy smoker.

Bethel was apparently in Generation Kill, and apparently did a good job in it. If that were the case, I think I would have preferred to see him as Chance (the role he was auditioning for). I think he could have played haunted-by-war better. Driscoll plays the military discipline/respect part fine...but I don't see the shadows of war in him. (On the other hand, I think Clementine Ford plays the shadows of Darfur just fine).

He had a supporting role in Generation Kill (the swoonsome Alexander Skarsgaard was also on the show) but I loved GK so much that I'm willing to give any actor who worked on that series a free pass! Everybody gave a flat-out dedicated performance in that show.

Reading just now in your previous post of how WB read for the part of Chance makes me sort of wish he had been cast. Bethel looks so haunted that it would have added subtext to a horribly underwritten role. But perhaps Y&R passed on him because he and Liz Hendricksen didn't have enough or chemistry, or maybe next to Clementine Ford he looked short. In any case, I would have found him very believeable as Tricia Cast and Thom Bierdz's son. He looks young enough and has something of Tricia in the eyes and mouth.

He had a supporting role in Generation Kill (the swoonsome Alexander Skarsgaard was also on the show) but I loved GK so much that I'm willing to give any actor who worked on that series a free pass! Everybody gave a flat-out dedicated performance in that show.

Reading just now in your previous post of how WB read for the part of Chance makes me sort of wish he had been cast. Bethel looks so haunted that it would have added subtext to a horribly underwritten role. But perhaps Y&R passed on him because he and Liz Hendricksen didn't have enough or chemistry, or maybe next to Clementine Ford he looked short. In any case, I would have found him very believeable as Tricia Cast and Thom Bierdz's son. He looks young enough and has something of Tricia in the eyes and mouth.

I never saw GK. Guess I'm gonna have to watch it. It seemed to dark for my mood, and we were dealing with darkness in real life when it was on.

But as I read your second paragraph, it really makes me sad that they went another way with Chance.

They were VERY unsure about Driscoll. They flew him to LA, screen tested him, and rejected him (per the most recent SOD). Then, they were interested in another test. Driscoll flew back to LA (on his own dime, he reports), and got it the second time.

My guess is that forces within the show were more pre-disposed to Bethel, but the network wanted a photogenic, soap-experienced "hunk" for the "legacy character" role.

I'm not sure how much it has to do with legacy characters. To the people at Y&R now, Amber is more of a legacy character than anyone in her age group. Look at how she holds up compared to Colleen.

I think they just wanted a somewhat generic guy to be Chance because they have him in mind for the stuff with Chloe. She needs the "good" but boring man to contrast with Billy. I think they also may have cast Bethel in another role because they can do anything with Ryder, whereas, since Chance is part of the Chancellor family, they may feel suffocated in writing for him. They seem to have no real interest in actually writing for Mackenzie or Chance beyond being there to be counters to Billy and Chloe.

I am left with the continued impression that this is a show in repair mode...a show that has heard many of the kinds of criticisms we have made here on SON. Most will not believe that this is a sincere redirection -- not even me -- because trust has been damaged. But more than anything these last weeks, I really felt this was a transitional, foundational show that signalled that things are on the right track.

I don't see this at all. Mostly everything on this show is sloppily plotted and rushed, it's hard to tell if anything is being "repaired." It's going to take a lot more than showing the Newman set for and a woman, who is obviously still fragile, speaking her mind for me to say they've understood whatever complaints have been made and are seeking to correct them. I don't know what's the right tract anymore, this show is still too bizarre for my liking, extremely hallow in its scenes and overall story and relationships, and very weak overall. This isn't a show that's on an upswing, IMO. It feels like they're just threading along and making sh!t up as they go along.

Edited October 27, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

I never saw GK. Guess I'm gonna have to watch it. It seemed to dark for my mood, and we were dealing with darkness in real life when it was on.

GK is not heavily dark and depressing -- in fact it is lightened for the most part by a lot of humor as the marines going into Iraq trade quips about their commanders not knowing WTF they are doing or even how to read a map. WB distinguishes himself early on by his singing of "Hot in Herre" with another marine on the road to Baghdad and... it's actually sort of hilarious seeing two young, out-of-tune marines do that.

But as I read your second paragraph, it really makes me sad that they went another way with Chance.

They were VERY unsure about Driscoll. They flew him to LA, screen tested him, and rejected him (per the most recent SOD). Then, they were interested in another test. Driscoll flew back to LA (on his own dime, he reports), and got it the second time.

My guess is that forces within the show were more pre-disposed to Bethel, but the network wanted a photogenic, soap-experienced "hunk" for the "legacy character" role.

Wow. They REALLY were not sure. I sense Bloom probably pulled rank and insisted that Driscoll "stay within the CBS family" and not risk getting lured away by OLTL or Days. I understand that Bethel already knew Y&R's casting person and she got him an "in." As she has experience casting in Primetime, I'm guessing she was instrumental in getting Y&R to have another look at him. I didn't recognize WB when Ryder first came on screen (his character is quite different on GK!) but his intensity popped on-screen. I mean, he almost stole his first scene from cheshire cat Sean Kanan!

Edited October 27, 200916 yr by Cat

I'm not sure how much it has to do with legacy characters. To the people at Y&R now, Amber is more of a legacy character than anyone in her age group. Look at how she holds up compared to Colleen.

I think they just wanted a somewhat generic guy to be Chance because they have him in mind for the stuff with Chloe. She needs the "good" but boring man to contrast with Billy. I think they also may have cast Bethel in another role because they can do anything with Ryder, whereas, since Chance is part of the Chancellor family, they may feel suffocated in writing for him. They seem to have no real interest in actually writing for Mackenzie or Chance beyond being there to be counters to Billy and Chloe.

And this is exactly what it is...

Clearly, very little thought or development went into the Chance character. Not like Y&R writes for characters anymore, it's all just filler material until the next stunt or death.

And this is exactly what it is...

Clearly, very little thought or development went into the Chance character. Not like Y&R writes for characters anymore, it's all just filler material until the next stunt or death.

Maybe...just maybe...they'll ease back on that.

Like you, I believe only time will tell. For my money, we've had a run of decent episodes now. I sense a real tone shift, and a character realignment (it's obvious, with all the characters shifting workplaces). That suggests responsiveness to me. But only consistent follow through will earn trust again. I prefer to remain optimistic.

Maybe...just maybe...they'll ease back on that.

Like you, I believe only time will tell. For my money, we've had a run of decent episodes now. I sense a real tone shift, and a character realignment (it's obvious, with all the characters shifting workplaces). That suggests responsiveness to me. But only consistent follow through will earn trust again. I prefer to remain optimistic.

Consistent in what sense?

I still think the overall plotting, pacing, and story direction is a mess on this show.

Consistent in what sense?

I still think the overall plotting, pacing, and story direction is a mess on this show.

With Mark... It's one step forward, ten... In the opposite direction.

I think Mark has some good points, I just am too cynical/pessimistic to grant them, and I think it's all surface as of now, it's still based on empty stories and empty characters. But I'm glad he's saying them, because if the show does improve over the next few months, then he's helped us see the early steps.

^^^I agree, Carl.

But I think we've all seen too many positive steps or episodes over the past 6 months for them to be botched or misused over the long haul. As Mark pointed out, trust in this show and in this problematic writing regime is at an all time low.

Consistent in what sense?

I still think the overall plotting, pacing, and story direction is a mess on this show.

I think Mark has some good points, I just am too cynical/pessimistic to grant them, and I think it's all surface as of now, it's still based on empty stories and empty characters. But I'm glad he's saying them, because if the show does improve over the next few months, then he's helped us see the early steps.

Consistent in the sense that CarlD2 defines it: If this marks a turnaround, and there is a steady improvement. If this does not happen, then you'll know I join the chorus. But I am impressed that there is a concerted attempt at turnaround. That is the positive side of the clunky 26-week transition. Now, only time will tell if this develops into something even CarlD2 would call "not empty". I see no value in assuming or hoping it will fail. That would just make me another Rush Limbaugh.