These writers have mainly picked up one characteristic of each character and have presented it in a loop; suddenly, these women are not multidimensional anymore, they do the same thing, the same way and bother with the same things all the time. And, when they bother to show something different, it's because they need to do so in order to advance horrid plotlines. They all speak the same, there is a feeling they would do anything, it's just a mess...

Exactly!

One of Y&R's strengths was it's varied portrayal of Women but now those same Women have been reduced to shallow, plot dependent sycophants.

One of Y&R's strengths was it's varied portrayal of Women but now those same Women have been reduced to shallow, plot dependent sycophants.

Yep--all individuality has been erased.

I think the current characterizations play on the way some fans conceive those characters--a lot of people always saw Sharon as a slut, regardless of any other character traits shown before, so her being constantly portrayed as a slut actually confirms their feelings on the character. Same with Ashley--she was a good businesswoman, loyal, a bit of a cold bitch at times, but also very much interested in her family... oh, and she was also very much into Victor, and... delicate at times. So many people who only saw her as the poor crazy victim really see no difference at all. Of course, the really fucked up thing is that the writers themselves see these characters--and all the rest--in the same, dare I say, prejudiced way: Ashley: Crazy victim, Sharon: Unstable slut, etc. And that's how they portray them.

Edited October 27, 200916 yr by YRBB

The differences are ridiculous.

Bill Bell & Kay Alden's Sharon had issues but she had a POV & a voice of her own.

Now everything about the character has been decimated to suit the plot.

Sharon was never that complicated.

Bell and Alden's Sharon:

Smith, Latham and MAB's Sharon:

Incredible...they now have Ashley speaking for their entire female audience, and putting Victor in his place. This seems a sure sign that the tide has turned, and TPTB understand the objections to last few months.

Thank God, though, that Victor remains smart. His incredulity that her madness would have passed "after a few sessions" is spot on! Today has really reaffirmed my sense that the writers have reclaimed their understanding of several of these characters! I loved how both Braeden and Davidson brought on the moist eyes..V: "You seem tense", A: "Because you're here...The only way you can make me happy is to leave". Wow!

===

I know Adrienne Frantz doesn't get a lot of love around SON, but today again she showed why she is the best younger actress on the show. She brings energy and a perspective. There is nothing wishy washy about her. She holds her own in scenes with Stafford and Bregman. She finds the comedic subtext. She is a solid, capable performer.

Ah, but the return of the Ouija board! I could hear some of you howling over the internet! So, this is the kind of story I like...a little mystery, a little humor (Scooby-Dooby-Doo, where are you?). I cannot lie. So what is with the recurring "DEAD" messages? At first I thought it was spelling "Deacon". No matter...they have my interest piqued with all this mystery surrounding Ryder and now the Ouija Board. I can't help myself. But I have loved Ouija stories since a board predicted Mary Kennicott Martin's (Susan Blanchard's) death (which young Tad Martin witnessed) on AMC decades ago.

===

We see my beloved Newman set again. The hallway! With adjoining rooms! It doesn't have the cameras-on-tracks of the LML days, but still there was scope and movement. Another sure sign that the writers have listened a little...this is a return to "business".

I am also delighted to see yet another Michael-Adam confrontation. I truly belive that this may be the "money rivalry", even though I personally see value in Adam-Nick-Billy-Chance mixing it up in a next-generation scuffle.

Just as they are smartening other characters, I like to see that Adam is playing this smart too. He points the finger at a company assistant...which is plausible, and consistent with his pattern. Alas, any chances of a "good Adam" remain dashed...but at least they are remaining consistent to this particular vision of Adam.

I'm trying to figure out how Victor trust Michael "implicitly". I realize this relationship evolved over the years, but am I the only one who remembers how much Victor HATED Michael during the "Diane Jenkins divorce" days?

I get that Deacon is being injected all over the place...but I still find him to be a delightful rascal. He is pure slime, but he somehow retains an attractive core. I loved him making his low-talking moves on Victoria...watching her be bowed by his words...and watching JT spy it all. Maybe that punch was over-staged, but it was still a long-time coming. If Sheffer gives men their 'balls back', it sure was nice to see JT reclaim his for a bit.

"Dude talk" of the day: "I don't even want to know WHY JT socked that dude!"

===

I liked that they showed us Ryder's banging lithe bod for a second. This is PROOF that they plan for him to stick around...they're even trying to build a fanbase. They don't show characters we're supposed to hate shirtless. I think it is also meaningful that JANA saw him that way. I think that shows us a bit of the direction this is headed...maybe Jana feigning attraction to get under his skin, but then finding some connection with the 'rascal' in him. After all, she was once a 'rascal' too, and that was the initial basis of her attraction to Kevin. Plus she still has that 1% of tumor left in her brain...and she DID have headaches during the chipmunk saga.

Although, I guess this Ryder thing could be a trick. Years ago, when Dereck raped Christine, they first showed him as a traditional teen romantic lead...handsome, well dressed (I forget if we saw his body). And then they TRICKED us by turning him into an angry rapist. Which was a very, very effective way of teaching us about acquaintance rape. I suppose they could be deceiving us with Ryder, using some "good guy/soap hunk" conceits...only to pull the rug out from under us later. There is enough physical similarity between Ryder and JT, I'd be pretty worried if I were Mr. Luckinbill...esp. if Ryder is the new "it boy". (Ryder was a late addition...he tested for Chance, and they liked him a lot. After Chance went to Driscoll, they created this role for Wilson Bethel).

But that was a clever way to re-use Kevin's set for a second episode...have Lauren "host" a dinner at Kevin's place. Will Gloria and Jeff be there too? I've missed a Munster-mash.

===

I am left with the continued impression that this is a show in repair mode...a show that has heard many of the kinds of criticisms we have made here on SON. Most will not believe that this is a sincere redirection -- not even me -- because trust has been damaged. But more than anything these last weeks, I really felt this was a transitional, foundational show that signalled that things are on the right track.

I have to admit Mark that I felt the same way you did. I know the rivalry is supposed to be between Adam and Nick, but I think one between the two Harvard men (Adam and Michael would be better). Everyone has been written some dumb around Adam, that I like Michael having his number.

As for Victor's trust in Michael it developed slowly but the big change occurred when Michael was willing to sacrifice himself for Victor when the bribery charges came down because Victor had a family that needed him. That Christmas we saw Michael watching the Newmans celebrate Christmas while he was alone and outside and then the next year Michael was invited in to share. Then when Lauren supposedly died, Victor and Nikki were the first to come to Michael to bring a food basket and console him. Victor was even there when Michael was worried about Fen and Lauren surviving after Fen's birth.

In return, Michael kept Victor afloat when Sabrina was dying and he and Lauren were two of the few people who were genuinely nice to Sabrina. Michael has bailed him out of some pretty sticky messes. Hence the trust was earned but you know Victor, he can turn on you on a dime. But Victor knows that Michael is smart and let's be honest Nick is no rocket scientist, Adam can't be trusted and Victoria isn't HT's Victoria so he has turned to Michael for that trust.

Plus seeing Lauren in between an Amber/Phyllis fight and being snarky to Kevin (What is your favorite coffee? Tea) is all kinds of good. I actually like Amber when she is working with Bregman and Cooper.

I will take what I can get, but I like the turn towards business and the fact I am seeing Michael involved with something other than propping his family, and I am just happy to see Lauren.

Edited October 28, 200916 yr by lmfan

Exactly. It worries me when people say that they see no difference in the way the characters are being presented, and written now, with how they used to be. These writers have mainly picked up one characteristic of each character and have presented it in a loop; suddenly, these women are not multidimensional anymore, they do the same thing, the same way and bother with the same things all the time. And, when they bother to show something different, it's because they need to do so in order to advance horrid plotlines. They all speak the same, there is a feeling they would do anything, it's just a mess...

Nikki's interesting and famous quotation from yesterday's epi I believe "The definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" I think with that there these writers have told us they believe these characters are crazy so it will be painful to watch for anyone who thinks differently. Someone has a warped idea of these soap characters and how to write them

Edited October 28, 200916 yr by classicmoment

I have to admit Mark that I felt the same way you did. I know the rivalry is supposed to be between Adam and Nick, but I think one between the two Harvard men (Adam and Michael would be better). Everyone has been written some dumb around Adam, that I like Michael having his number.

As for Victor's trust in Michael it developed slowly but the big change occurred when Michael was willing to sacrifice himself for Victor when the bribery charges came down because Victor had a family that needed him. That Christmas we saw Michael watching the Newmans celebrate Christmas while he was alone and outside and then the next year Michael was invited in to share. Then when Lauren supposedly died, Victor and Nikki were the first to come to Michael to bring a food basket and console him. Victor was even there when Michael was worried about Fen and Lauren surviving after Fen's birth.

In return, Michael kept Victor afloat when Sabrina was dying and he and Lauren were two of the few people who were genuinely nice to Sabrina. Michael has bailed him out of some pretty sticky messes. Hence the trust was earned but you know Victor, he can turn on you on a dime. But Victor knows that Michael is smart and let's be honest Nick is no rocket scientist, Adam can't be trusted and Victoria isn't HT's Victoria so he has turned to Michael for that trust.

Plus seeing Lauren in between an Amber/Phyllis fight and being snarky to Kevin (What is your favorite coffee? Tea) is all kinds of good. I actually like Amber when she is working with Bregman and Cooper.

I will take what I can get, but I like the turn towards business and the fact I am seeing Michael involved with something other than propping his family, and I am just happy to see Lauren.

We are totally on the same wavelength here, lmfan.

Lauren also was talking about her BUSINESS with Amber...which is another nice step forward.

Nick is no challenge for Adam. Not by a mile. But Michael.... Poor Adam won't know what hit him. Because, if he has to, Michael just has to look back into himself, and he can figure out the mind of a devious man. I think fighting Adam could drag Michael back into the gutter a bit...possible in ways more "changing" than the Fishers ever could. Indeed, I could see Michael becoming quite ruthless, and that starting to cause a rift between Lauren and Michael.

I really felt like we were seeing some build toward this lately, and I hope it continues.

so I have a question, what was up with the Phyllis - Ashley convo with Phyllis having to put the unneccessary reference to Newman men and Masculinity, UMM it is more validation for the show writers fondness for Misogony

so I have a question, what was up with the Phyllis - Ashley convo with Phyllis having to put the unneccessary reference to Newman men and Masculinity, UMM it is more validation for the show writers fondness for Misogony

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Here is the dialogue:

Phyllis: I know. (Whispering) so adorable. She really looks like a Newman. How is it that our daughters look like our strong, strapping, masculine husbands? But still come out looking feminine and beautiful?

Ashley: (Chuckles)

Phyllis: How is that-- (chuckles)

Ashley: Thank gosh.

Phyllis: I know.

Now, I actually thought the intent of that dialogue was the "looking like" (multiple lines in several episodes have emphasized Faith's resemblance to Nicholas which -- I imagine -- over time will help people buy a clue).

But, then, they decided to play that for laughs...because "looking like Nicholas" would make some people think "poor girl--she must resemble a Neanderthal man". So, they added in the "still come out looking feminine and beautiful" to reassure us that Faith was not ugly. I don't think this was about asserting the testosterone of the Newman men in any particular way.

Later in the conversation:

Ashley: Oh, was it awful? Yeah. You know, it's just like our relationship isn't how I thought it would be. The cost of being a Newman is just too--too high. I mean, I want the girls to be proud of their father. And obviously, I want them to have all the advantages that come with being a Newman, but I just don't want them anywhere near that dark side, not at all.

Phyllis: Oh. I don't think that's possible. I mean, take it from me. After watching what Nick has gone through and seeing what happened to Summer, if you want the good, the bad comes with it.

I thought that this was a fairly clear exposition that being with Newmans is a mixed bag -- good and bad. The problem is not masculinity, but the "dark" side. Had JT been in the room, he could have been saying the same words about Victoria.

Edited October 28, 200916 yr by MarkH

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Here is the dialogue:

Now, I actually thought the intent of that dialogue was the "looking like" (multiple lines in several episodes have emphasized Faith's resemblance to Nicholas which -- I imagine -- over time will help people buy a clue).

But, then, they decided to play that for laughs...because "looking like Nicholas" would make some people think "poor girl--she must resemble a Neanderthal man". So, they added in the "still come out looking feminine and beautiful" to reassure us that Faith was not ugly. I don't think this was about asserting the testosterone of the Newman men in any particular way.

Later in the conversation:

O h I get that it was subtext for the baby is Nick's but then again "Newmans" Victor is a Newman too. So Phyllis didn't say the baby look like Nick she said wow she looks like a Newman, I know the intent is for the viewer to use Phyllis' adoration and inclination to Nick (specially in physical form) to somehow connect it to her recognizability. But part of the subtext of that same dialogue, imo, seem to be hinting at the supposed strong patriarchial, machismo characteristics that are suppose to affiliate themselves with being a Newman man...

I thought that this was a fairly clear exposition that being with Newmans is a mixed bag -- good and bad. The problem is not masculinity, but the "dark" side. Had JT been in the room, he could have been saying the same words about Victoria.

The point is not to sell Masculinity as a problem, but with OVERTONES of misogony the lead male characters on the show are falling under that same problematic territory. These characterstic, written well, can make for good drama but Y&R need a more diverse representation there within these individual characters. TPTB should Stop trying to write each character (males and females alike) to one beat. Victor Newman is dark, yes he is and BB and others have managed to unfold complicated layers out the character, but Nicholas and Victoria Newman not so much

I thought the point of that scene was to say, in a roundabout way, that this is still a Newman child but not Ashley's child, and they were sort of having a laugh with Phyllis because she's going on about how her husband's love child looks like a Newman.

The dialogue was a bit odd, and made even more odd because Ashley and Phyllis rarely have scenes. It was one of those moments which just seemed somewhat forced onto the characters.

That caricature of Victor does not look bad at all. At heart I think Billy still likes Victor.

I thought the point of that scene was to say, in a roundabout way, that this is still a Newman child but not Ashley's child, and they were sort of having a laugh with Phyllis because she's going on about how her husband's love child looks like a Newman.

The dialogue was a bit odd, and made even more odd because Ashley and Phyllis rarely have scenes. It was one of those moments which just seemed somewhat forced onto the characters.

That caricature of Victor does not look bad at all. At heart I think Billy still likes Victor.

You just want Billy to be Victor's son, LOL. Which I wouldn't mind either, since the ground was laid a long time ago.

I did find the Phyllis-Ashley scenes odd, but I guess they were bonding over their "Newman" men...and it gave them a chance to discuss this "resemblance" issue. I did wonder if Phyllis and Ashley would now be turned into friends. That works, actually...because eventually, if Phyll discovers the truth before Ashley, she might be torn about whether to reveal it (at the possible cost of her husband).

As for the Victor caricature, can you see that he is twirling his moustache? I thought that was a nice touch.

Edited October 28, 200916 yr by MarkH

I think the last few episodes have seen a definite change in direction based on viewers complaints. There is more character interaction and business storylines but there is still so much wrong. The cast is overbloated and filled with a whole whack of actors the audience and the writers care nothing for. My main problem is that the writers obviously have no long term vision for the characters and the show, so everyone is shallow and the whole show is hollow.

Why was Mac brought back? She has added absolutely nothing to the show. I think it would have been better story wise to develop Chloe and Billy's relationship and marriage. They should have addressed the Sharon affair and try to move past it successfully or not. Then once they were established bring back Mac and add Chance. That would have gone a long way to developing a working triangle or quad rather than having four undeveloped core characters being used as nothing but filler.

Why is Jack to blame for everything? Is Peter Bergman next on the contract hit list? It’s his fault and not Victor's that Patty is in the state she's in? He might have treated her like a toy, but Mary Jane never came across as vulnerable. Billy is the good brother who goes to help Ashley while Jack is too self-involved. Something stinks here.

And why didn't they write that Ashley's miracle pregnancy was a hysterical one to begin with.

Edited October 28, 200916 yr by BadZoe

I didn't see that at first. It's a very clever caricature. They're really a lost artform don't you think. I guess they're doing an unintentional homage to the old Y&R opening.

I do think this version of Billy would fit in quite well as Victor's son. I think he's more like the Newmans than most of the Newman children are at the moment. For all the show's effort to make him the young Jack, he reminds me more of Victor, only without the control freak tendencies (he doesn't care enough to want to control). I also think he fits the outcast role better than Adam, since Adam is now a total psycho, more than just an outcast.

I also want to see how they can pull off barely having Jill in another story that she should have a central role in. It takes a lot of effort.

Edited October 28, 200916 yr by CarlD2

I think the last few episodes have seen a definite change in direction based on viewers complaints. There is more character interaction and business storylines but there is still so much wrong. The cast is overbloated and filled with a whole whack of actors the audience and the writers care nothing for. My main problem is that the writers obviously have no long term vision for the characters and the show, so everyone is shallow and the whole show is hollow.

Why was Mac brought back? She has added absolutely nothing to the show. I think it would have been better story wise to develop Chloe and Billy's relationship and marriage. They should have addressed the Sharon affair and try to move past it successfully or not. Then once they were established bring back Mac and add Chance. That would have gone a long way to developing a working triangle or quad rather than having four undeveloped core characters being used as nothing but filler.

Why is Jack to blame for everything? Is Peter Bergman next on the contract hit list? It’s his fault and not Victor's that Patty is in the state she's in? He might have treated her like a toy, but Mary Jane never came across as vulnerable. Billy is the good brother who goes to help Ashley while Jack is too self-involved. Something stinks here.

And why didn't they write that Ashley's miracle pregnancy was a hysterical one to begin with.

I totally agree about Mac. She was brought in for a big Friday cliffhanger, coincident with the undoing of the Jill-Kay debacle...but there seemed to be no plan. So, too, your comment about Ashley's pregnancy is a good one. I don't know if they changed direction, or if they had to do it that way because they wanted to villainize Adam.

It could even be that it was ALWAYS hysterical, and that the blood that (a blind) Adam mopped up (in the dark) was really related to her fall...not a real pregnancy. They could even script it that way, if they wanted to absolve him of leading to her miscarriage.

As for Jack, here I disagree with you. He has long straddled this line of good and evil. While that was always there, it dissipated a lot under Peter Bergman...so that Jack started to earn the label "Aunt Jack" in some quarters. He was so sappy for Nikki and Luan. But he also stepped over Victor's lifeless body. But compared to Terry Lester, he was much less of a b*stard.

Under LML, we saw a ramped up evil in Jack, most notably when Jack took advantage of brain-damaged Victor's "friendship" to buy NVP and to get a favorable loan. Then, under MAB, Jack is the (still-unpunished) mastermind behind the whole diary debacle that has ultimately ruined Adam's life.

As for Patty, Jack IS responsible...ultimately. It was Jack who took that young girl and played with her emotions (so he could get the Presidency of Jabot). It was Jack who regularly used women as sex toys, and he drove both Lindsey Wells and Patty out of their minds by doing so.

Now, he doesn't bear responsibility for what has happened to Patty since then, or for Victor's using her.

But Jack also was very comfortable having a casual sex relationship with Mary Jane--he even called her "Sugar"! Which goes to show that the woman-using Jack is still in there...not so far from the surface. Now, I realize that Jack construed it as an adult, consensual, no-strings relationship with Mary Jane. But isn't that the same mistake he made Patty over two decades ago? Wasn't Jack insensitive to some of Mary Jane's signs of fragility? Or--when he noticed them--didn't he go ahead and screw her anyway?

My feeling is that Jack deserves a share of the blame. It is true that, lately, he was not as malevolent as Victor. But he deserves a heaping helping of "guilt pie" where Patty is concerned.

Why was Mac brought back? She has added absolutely nothing to the show. I think it would have been better story wise to develop Chloe and Billy's relationship and marriage. They should have addressed the Sharon affair and try to move past it successfully or not. Then once they were established bring back Mac and add Chance. That would have gone a long way to developing a working triangle or quad rather than having four undeveloped core characters being used as nothing but filler.

I think Mac is there because they want us to see that Billy can't go back to the past, he can't be a saint. He has to be the a$$hole Billy that they think viewers love. Chloe is supposed to be his soulmate, the one who knows the "real" him. Not Mackenzie. Mackenzie is a frump who drags him down.

The problem with this is that the Chloe/Billy relationship was never developed enough to make this triangle work. I don't believe that Chloe knows the real Billy any more than Mackenzie does. I don't believe that Billy cares a bit about Chloe. I think giving them a baby was a dumb idea, and the child seems completely irrelevant to the storyline now. I actually forget they have a child half the time.

It was all very lazy writing which was built on underpinnings which were never very well put together in the first place.

My feeling is that Jack deserves a share of the blame. It is true that, lately, he was not as malevolent as Victor. But he deserves a heaping helping of "guilt pie" where Patty is concerned.

They keep putting blame on him more to make others look better than to actually make any point or character growth for Jack. They do this to Jack to give excuses for Victor, and also to make Billy look like the better brother.