B&B Weekly Discussion

[y&r_fan]

True - if I ever get a debilitating disease, I'm going to go recurring!

[MarkH]

You know, I thought about this comment a lot. Because that makes me ponder whether I suffer from Marceline's "nostalgia disease".

But I don't think this quite connects with my disappointment about B&B.

It is true that during the endless misery of 2008, I often referenced Sally Spectra. And here, I actually think it was more in the spirit of agreeing with you...B&B needed more camp and return to fashion.

I will also say that there was a (long) time when dewy Brooke Logan's broken heart just moved me. I totally believed in her love for Ridge, and I totally felt for her every time Ridge was a tool (and picked Caroline or Taylor) or Stephanie screwed her over. My sympathy for Brooke began to wane once she went with Eric. Because at that moment she was not longer true to her own 'destiny' and 'soul mate'. Eventually the passage of time and romantic flip flops became unseemly for a woman in midlife. Once my interest in Brooke's love story ended, no other romance on the show has ever compellingly filled the breach for me.

In these ways, I agree, I may be stuck in the past.

But, really, my core dissatisfaction with B&B has ALWAYS BEEN the problem of the "weaker sister". Y&R is, has pretty much always been, and continues to be...good. It is a Bell soap, and it features relatable characters, drama that emerges logically out of history and character, few sudden character shifts to suit plot, and (again recently) dialogue and performances that are as good as what you see in primetime or theater. In that context, because B&B is a Bell show, I have always wanted it to be "another Y&R". Always. From Day One, I have never fully been able to appreciate B&B for its own merits...I have always wanted her to be more like her older sister.

What, in fact, has happened over the years is that B&B has become more like her cousin in the next town, DOOL. I am not happy about that .

So odd. My tie to B&B is, honestly, 22 years of wishing it would be something different, and enjoying aspects of it. Maybe it's just time for me to accept it for what it is, and move on.

Sorry to psycho-babble here.

[DRW50]

When I watched B&B on a regular basis, I usually enjoyed the show more than Y&R. Y&R was very serious and B&B was fun. Camp, sure, but also the fun of seeing playful, attractive couples, and watching a show which didn't take itself too seriously. I think they started losing their way around the late 90s/early 00s when the Amber story peaked and they were left with a slew of characters who were reaching the crossroads. They had the option of finally maturing Brooke thanks to her love story with Thorne. They had the option of finding mature material for Ridge and Taylor, or writing them out. There was a chance to move Amber into stronger stories, and put her with CJ. (I know Rick and Amber may have been popular but I never saw any chemistry between them)

Instead, Brooke regressed, Taylor was killed off, they tried a desperate rewrite on Ridge by making him a Marone, and Amber was stuck in silly storylines about home shopping, about a weird twin. That's also when they got the idea of pushing the envelope on the incest, and while I know Bridget and Ridge were not related, seeing him make out with a girl he had raised as his daughter and then believed to be his sister for most of her life was repulsive. I also hated seeing Brooke made to be a huge slut, because up to then they'd managed to sell Brooke, if people wanted to see her that way, as a woman who was only following her heart. Sleeping with her daughter's husband over and over was following her crotch, and I don't think the character has ever recovered. I think bringing Taylor back was a mistake, because she had nowhere to go but down. Her biggest quality was her perceived virtue, which they demolished. Now she's presented as some type of a sad, lost woman with nowhere to go.

The Marones had the potential of changing the show, but instead they folded into the confines of the show. Massimo was a heavy for a few years and then disappeared. Jackie was beaten down by Stephanie and then became a bit player. Nick became a backup Ridge. A middle-aged man acting like a teenager, tagging every piece of tail he could find with "true love" used as an excuse for a booty call.

Again when the Logans were brought back, I thought there was a chance at a restructuring, but Donna is some uneasy combination of tramp/ingenue, a poorly cast attempt at a younger Brooke that just shows how underrated an actress KKL is, they ruined Storm for a very pretentious, overwrought story about suicide, Katie has somehow made Heather Tom unwatchable, and the Logan parents never fit in. I never understood why they didn't explore more of the backstory between Eric and Beth. Is it because they can't have Eric move beyond being the horny old man?

There was also so much wasted potential. They've never done enough with Felicia. They could have done more with Macy. They could have done more with CJ. I still don't know why Rick Hearst was written out so quickly. I don't know why Sydney Penny was rushed out after a year while her unappealing husband and daughter stayed around. I don't understand why so many of the children of Taylor, Ridge, and Brooke were so abandoned or ruined by lazy, bad writing. I don't understand why Amber, who (love her or hate her) B&B spent years investing in, was casually thrown into a character-destroying romance with Thomas and then shunted off to Y&R. I think they also wasted many opportunities with Stephanie because they felt more comfortable writing her as the all-powerful gorgon.

I feel as if B&B was too afraid to stray from their comfort zone and now they don't know how. Susan Flannery can't stay on B&B forever, and when she goes, she's leaving behind a slew of mismanaged, tired characters, or undefined characters played by actors who can't handle lead roles. The potential is still there, but I think they have to make some hard decisions, which would including writing out some (not all) of the characters like Katie, Donna, Ridge, Eric, Nick or Taylor, finally investing in a solid twentysomething and thirtysomething set, bringing in new characters who will not simply be used as fresh meat for the Forresters or Logans, and going back to having some sense of genuine romance, and of genuine fun. I also think they should either properly use the fashion industry or have Forrester Creations be obliterated in the bad economy, forcing everyone to scatter into new careers and new lives.

What I most want is for them to learn how to tell a story. How to pace a story. I want this for almost all the soaps.

[MarkH]

Stuff above deleted for bandwidth...

I can't think of a single word here I disagree with.

The squandered opportunities...there are so many more than you even list here...interesting performers brought in and never used....

But I seriously meant what I wrote above. I'm going to try to watch B&B with different eyes...what I'll call "DaytimeFan eyes"...that respect the show for what it is.

My fear is, though, that if I drop the part of my connection that is due to Bell loyalty (because, truthfully, that is part of it...that's why Eileen Davidson and Heather Tom sucked me back in after a hiatus...and why I was excited about Kay Alden and Jack Smith joining)...I don't know how much allegiance I'll have left.

I think that is a big part of what galls me to...how so many people who made great contributions at Y&R and elsewhere can come to B&B and just...be either horrible or wasted.

[bellcurve]

I love you, but I have a huge problem with this.

If the international audience already views B&B as a comedy prior to what is going on now, why not attempt to write for your American audience that values a mix of smart humor, gripping drama, and awkward poses and let the international audience views it for what it is? Why stoop to some level of humiliation and "The Soup-dom" all to appeal to international sales? And Brad Bell has said in many interviews that, although international sales are important, there is no show without a domestic base. Maybe he and the staffers are writing the show for those abroad and they feel as though with Y&R as a lead-in, their numbers can't drop. But that doesn't mean the B&B fan or viewer should just sit back and enjoy it because they think it will never change.

What's the point of even airing the show domestically if the only thing you have in mind is the international audience and "the Boomerang Awards"? Why did Lee Phillip Bell fight in the early 90's to get their show cleared by over 97%, if they only intended to write the show for an international audience? If they continue to write for them?

I know it's your opinion, but I feel like your justification for the nonsensical stories we see onscreen is just appalling. It's the same argument that we got when we were outraged about Erica's unabortion or LML's Fast-Track Hippie Agenda: "Oh, times have changed, soaps have changed. Bill Bell and Agnes Nixon aren't with the shows anymore, so let the writers in charge just write what they want with their own audience in mind, nevermind the core audience that stuck with them every step of the way."

Now I know how you feel about LML, as most of us do. Why are you so quick to accept constant character assassination and stories that make no sense on B&B, when you constantly raked LML over the coals for doing pretty much the exact same thing, in theory, at Y&R?

And, I haven't seen this week's shows. Maybe my opinion of the show will have changed by the time I see them. But I am SO not holding my breath about it.

[DaytimeFan]

I do agree with the squandered opportunities. B&B really hit the skids around 2002... but I've always looked at B&B as separate from Y&R and have never expected the level of 'serious' drama that Y&R is capable of because I've never seen it at B&B (aside from the Stephanie is Homeless storyline). It's flashier, more superficial and less involved. In some ways, when my life is busy I prefer B&B to Y&R because it doesn't requite my full attention, I can watch a bit of it and be satisfied and 'get' the storyline.

I've always looked at B&B as a Bell soap, but the fun side of Bill Bell that he didn't show too much of at Y&R. B&B was his opportunity to let loose a bit and that's what I've appreciated about B&B, even at its best it isn't Y&R and it doesn't aspire to be that either. It has its own identity, as inconsistent as that may be.

I don't think the international audience views B&B as a comedy or a joke. What I do think the international audience values is that B&B is more superficial than say 'East Enders' or one of the more 'gritty' soaps. That the show ended up on 'The Soup' isn't anything new, soaps have been skewered by that show since the days of Greg Kinnear.

I view B&B in a different light than you do. I don't think I've seen character assassination or really nonsensical plots. I have always viewed B&B as the jazziest soap on the air that plays fast and loose with its storylines. I have never held B&B to the same standard as Y&R because I think the shows are totally different. Look at the character of Lauren Fenmore...at B&B she was a campy bitch while at Y&R she has developed from spoiled brat to heroine to devoted wife and mother. I haven't seen a single character make that type of evolution. Everyone remains the same which doesn't bother me, that's what I find consistent about B&B.

My argument wasn't really worded correctly, I didn't mean to imply that it's fine to ignore a shows loyal audience. Nor did I EVER want to give that hack bitch from the depths of hell LML one ounce of leeway in her creative massacre of Y&R...I simply meant that the creative core of B&B, Brad Bell, is still there and that things have changed, personally, for him which has translated to what we see onscreen. Without his father there, without the same cast there (like Sally, Lauren, Amber, Macy, Whip and many others) and without a clear concept for the future, B&B has faltered. Bill Bell, whether people want to believe it or not, was instrumental with B&B until his Alzheimer's crushed him. That was 2003/2004 (when Bill was never left alone at Y&R parties, was always surrounded by familiar people, the Bells did the very best they could to give him his dignity)...That was when things started to change at Y&R, things started to change at B&B and things in the Bell family weren't ever the same.

Without his father Brad has had to find his way and it's been a real learning curve being 'the boss'. Yes, it's been nearly 4 years since Bill died...but a lot of other things have happened as well. Susan Flannery has gone back and forth about retirement and Darlene Conley died (which I think *really* threw Brad for a loop).

Finally, the importance of international sales has increased in recent years as production costs have eaten up a bit of what CBS pays in license fees. Yes, B&B is what it is because it has a domestic base...but it's international sales are what keep the Bells in the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed. BBL (short for Bill, Brad, Lauralee) is the syndication arm for B&B and it benefits the whole family and only the family, CBS sees no money from foreign sales, so Brad is under a lot of pressure to perform for his family.

I think Brad is burned out and I think he needs to give up the HW reigns to someone who really gets what B&B is about. He should still be EP and still be a consultant when it comes to the writing, but I think someone like MAB or Sara Bibel or Sally Sussman Morina (who I love even though she's pretty hated) or Meg Bennett could really do something for this show.

So overall, I just give Brad and B&B a lot of slack because it is a family affair and like all things with family, when crisis hits and life happens, a lot of things get affected. I'm a doctor, although I make people look good for a living, I also know what the harder side is like. I appreciate it for what it is, not what I wish it was because I just find that frustrating, LML took all the frustration I could give.

[nicknack]

IMO, it's part of B&B's appeal that you can tune in after taking a break after 5 years and still see roughly the same faces who still have roughly the same personalities and relationship dynamics. Yes, Ridge and Brooke go back and forther between together and apart, just as Brooke and Stephanie go back and forth between hating each other and occasional truces. But essentially, it's still the same and it takes you about 5 minutes to get caught up even after several years of taking a break. Even those times when the stars of the other storylines change (like when Amber was important or Nick) there are still those grounding stones that give you a point of reference.

Which of course means that B&B will have a major identity crisis once Eric and Steph are gone because the actors won't live forever. But at the moment that is their appeal.

(random, I talked to my aunt who lives in Germany for the first time in 2 years. She is a B&B fan and her comments were:

- Since when did Rick worship Taylor that much?

- Nick looks like "the teeth of time gnawed on him and spit him out"

- She liked the Eric/Donna story

Germany recently stopped airing B&B because after years of sending two dubbed episodes in one day they got caught up with current B&B meaning that if they had continued sending the dubs they would actually be ahead of real B&B. )

I also wouldn't underestimate that overseas many countries dub their shows, so bad acting (like in the case of Ronn) is a lot less noticable because professional voice actors are doing their voices who can put emotion into their voices even while the actor is bland.