I really loved the style and filming technique of The City both then and now. I think the attitude was right and the locale, even the found family aspect. I liked a lot of the cast. But the stories were not there and that was a key issue. I think narratively they were caught in a weird limbo between trying to emulate an era of then-contemporary primetime urban drama (and a period where the bohemian mystique of '90s NYC was at a new height) that often could operate on style and vibes over straight narrative at night vs. just being a conventional soap opera. And they were not equipped with a creative staff that could straddle that divide well.

Edited July 21, 20241 yr by Vee

The City’s production format should definitely be attempted again. It wasn’t the problem and the technical team did it well IMO. 

I would love it if The Gates uses a similar production format. 

I remember they aired Loving in my country, but just for one year/season. It was the year whenever Luke Perry came on as Ned and discovered that his girlfriend April is a prostitute I think also within that season Randy Mantooth came on as Clay. 

And then after this one season, we got The City. I don't even know if people realized this was the supposed to be the spin off. Since now Randy Mantooth's character was called Alex Masters

I did not like the beginning of The City. I found it so boring. Maybe also because I was missing the background information on the characters that moved from Loving to The City. But I got into it once Jared was shot and the Masquerader storyline started. 

I enjoyed the filming/production style as well. It seemed to be trendy for that time. Considering that no other soap is like that, I guess it could still feel fresh and different if done today. However, since young people don't watch network tv much these days, would then the older generation still watching it, would find this style interesting or would the prefer something that is safe and comforting and familiar? 

Someone Mentioned the Episodes were all scattered Around well not anymore!

Spoiler

 

Made an unlisted Playlist with every single episode u could find!

On 7/10/2024 at 6:02 AM, DRW50 said:

This is another episode that used to be on Youtube, I think, but I don't see it now so I reuploaded it. I'm not sure of the exact date as the original title said Thanksgiving 1991. It may be late October as the wedding that wasn't with Ava and Paul was on November 5 - if anyone knows I'd appreciate it.

I can't remember who said this was the best opening, but I tend to agree. It's very Lifetime commercial for this period but the images and music fit the show.

Paul and Ava had a ridiculous number of failed weddings in 1991 (3 at least). This is the planning of the last one in December, 1991, which was thwarted because Michael went missing the day of the ceremony. The episode is December 2, 1991, according to @Kane's blog, which tracks given the Chanukuah was from December 1 - 9 that year and the episode opens with a holiday greeting. 

I have a deep appreciation of 1991. I think Mary Ryan Munisteri's work is pretty on point and since I don't care about Trucker and Trisha like that I'm all for Trucker and Dinah Lee having their little affair. The opening works for the era.

On 7/17/2024 at 8:39 PM, DRW50 said:

He was. And over time he became a decent actor too. I think he may have retired not long after leaving daytime.

I assumed he and Jessica Collins married and went to the West Coast when he left "Loving" given all Collins' work after leaving, but I could be wrong.  

On 7/20/2024 at 9:50 AM, Khan said:

If you're going to spin off from another show, at least spin off from a show that's successful and that people watch.  LOVING never really took off as a show until the end, and that's because the serial killer storyline was kind of a well-executed novelty that created some buzz within the press.

My conspiracy theory hot take is Nixon would do anything to ensure that "Loving" lasted longer than "Ryan's Hope." If we are to take Wikipedia to be accurate (I know that's a stretch) "Loving" and "The City" combined (3,521 episodes) have 6 more episodes than "Ryan's Hope" (3,515 episodes).  

17 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Most are scattered on various channels - beyond the ones I had that I linked above, I know Jim Muneco and a number of channels that haven't been used in years have some episodes. Still, there's a big chunk missing. 

Thanks!

At the time I was definitely alienated as they didn't bring over characters like Ava and Gwyn, but by the end of 1996 I tried again and was fine (it wasn't a great show but was entertaining enough on a daily basis). 

If the writing had been better from the start, that would have helped - from what some said at the time, there were barely even any stories for months. I think they made the right choices with most of the characters they brought over, but many of the new characters for The City itself seemed to lack as much value. Even Roscoe Born I think most found a groove once they imported Lorraine over from Loving.

I love Morgan Fairchild, but then and now I also question whether it was really worth bringing her on as I think most of what they were trying to do with her was more of the past than what was popular by 1996 (another reason why The Monroes failed around this time). 

I wonder if The City ever would have existed if they'd had "GH2" ready by that point. 

Considering that Port Charles, which had all the help and ingredients that The City never did, also didn't ever really get traction, I wonder if it was just impossible. By this time there were no successful new soaps, really (unless you count Passions, I guess, even though it didn't run that much longer than soaps that were not considered successful and in some cases like Loving ran for less time), and the genre was sliding into a long death.

To be honest I enjoyed The City period with Jane Elliot as Tracy more than I ever enjoyed PC.

"The City" has finally found its way into the trading circles, but it is still missing a good chunk of episodes from the final months starting in September, 1996. 

I cannot stress how poorly cast Joel Fabiani was as Jared Chase. I think Jared's arrival in March had the potential to kick the show a bit into a higher gear, but Fabiani is so over the top that it goes past enjoyable camp into complete cringe. 

For the found family element to work, I still feel there needed to be more emphasis on the contrast to the traditional family. A lot of the stories in spring of 1996 involved biological family ties (Richard and Zoey's duel paternity questions, Jocelyn's prostitution as a result of incest, and there were layers of the Azure C. plot involving her mother and brother). I think they needed to develop those (biological) relationships more to explain why the found family may have been more appealing.

The late 1996-early 1997 stuff does seem tighter, but there is just a pervasive level of ugliness that runs through things when I watch. The lack of heart is off putting, though I suspect there were moments of occasional warmth and togetherness, so much of the show is run on the non-stop animosity among the shows tougher characters which makes them unappealing to me at most points. Carla vs. Tracy can be fun, but its exhausting when there is so little downtime.  

I find "Port Charles" much less off-putting than "The City," but often very generic. This is probably for the PC thread, but have you seen much of Karen Harris' "Port Charles" in 2000? I think that was probably the show at its strongest creatively. 

4 hours ago, Vee said:

I really loved the style and filming technique of The City both then and now. I think the attitude was right and the locale, even the found family aspect. I liked a lot of the cast. But the stories were not there and that was a key issue. I think narratively they were caught in a weird limbo between trying to emulate an era of then-contemporary primetime urban drama (and a period where the bohemian mystique of '90s NYC was at a new height) that often could operate on style and vibes over straight narrative at night vs. just being a conventional soap opera. And they were not equipped with a creative staff that could straddle that divide well.

I know Darren Star talks about "Central Park West" being one of the first shows in a long time to set a series in New York and focus on the glamour rather than the grit. From what I've seen, the show, at least initially, struggles between finding the soft spot between "Law & Order," "New York Undercover," and "Central Park West." 

3 hours ago, Manny said:

I remember they aired Loving in my country, but just for one year/season. It was the year whenever Luke Perry came on as Ned and discovered that his girlfriend April is a prostitute I think also within that season Randy Mantooth came on as Clay. 

And then after this one season, we got The City. I don't even know if people realized this was the supposed to be the spin off. Since now Randy Mantooth's character was called Alex Masters

I did not like the beginning of The City. I found it so boring. Maybe also because I was missing the background information on the characters that moved from Loving to The City. But I got into it once Jared was shot and the Masquerader storyline started. 

Interesting to think about how someone could go from having only seen 1987-1988 "Loving" to "The City." I've always been curious about how many countries aired "The City" given that I imagine a lot of interest in "Loving" waned internationally as local networks were developing more of their own soap operas.

1 hour ago, dc11786 said:

Paul and Ava had a ridiculous number of failed weddings in 1991 (3 at least). This is the planning of the last one in December, 1991, which was thwarted because Michael went missing the day of the ceremony. The episode is December 2, 1991, according to @Kane's blog, which tracks given the Chanukuah was from December 1 - 9 that year and the episode opens with a holiday greeting. 

I have a deep appreciation of 1991. I think Mary Ryan Munisteri's work is pretty on point and since I don't care about Trucker and Trisha like that I'm all for Trucker and Dinah Lee having their little affair. The opening works for the era.

I assumed he and Jessica Collins married and went to the West Coast when he left "Loving" given all Collins' work after leaving, but I could be wrong.  

My conspiracy theory hot take is Nixon would do anything to ensure that "Loving" lasted longer than "Ryan's Hope." If we are to take Wikipedia to be accurate (I know that's a stretch) "Loving" and "The City" combined (3,521 episodes) have 6 more episodes than "Ryan's Hope" (3,515 episodes).  

"The City" has finally found its way into the trading circles, but it is still missing a good chunk of episodes from the final months starting in September, 1996. 

I cannot stress how poorly cast Joel Fabiani was as Jared Chase. I think Jared's arrival in March had the potential to kick the show a bit into a higher gear, but Fabiani is so over the top that it goes past enjoyable camp into complete cringe. 

For the found family element to work, I still feel there needed to be more emphasis on the contrast to the traditional family. A lot of the stories in spring of 1996 involved biological family ties (Richard and Zoey's duel paternity questions, Jocelyn's prostitution as a result of incest, and there were layers of the Azure C. plot involving her mother and brother). I think they needed to develop those (biological) relationships more to explain why the found family may have been more appealing.

The late 1996-early 1997 stuff does seem tighter, but there is just a pervasive level of ugliness that runs through things when I watch. The lack of heart is off putting, though I suspect there were moments of occasional warmth and togetherness, so much of the show is run on the non-stop animosity among the shows tougher characters which makes them unappealing to me at most points. Carla vs. Tracy can be fun, but its exhausting when there is so little downtime.  

I find "Port Charles" much less off-putting than "The City," but often very generic. This is probably for the PC thread, but have you seen much of Karen Harris' "Port Charles" in 2000? I think that was probably the show at its strongest creatively. 

I know Darren Star talks about "Central Park West" being one of the first shows in a long time to set a series in New York and focus on the glamour rather than the grit. From what I've seen, the show, at least initially, struggles between finding the soft spot between "Law & Order," "New York Undercover," and "Central Park West." 

Interesting to think about how someone could go from having only seen 1987-1988 "Loving" to "The City." I've always been curious about how many countries aired "The City" given that I imagine a lot of interest in "Loving" waned internationally as local networks were developing more of their own soap operas.

The City's first year was shown in Greece, as were 1983-88 Loving episodes. I doubt anyone made a connection between the two shows. What I liked about the City was the Melrose/CPW vibe and of course Morgan Fairchild. I was not that crazy about the production style, always prefered the classic soap type. I had read the conclusion of Loving and I was shocked with the Alden deaths. Prior to the internet I used to buy Star Magazine in order to read the soap section lol. The only character I knew was Alex and I never really cared for him. I knew Angie from All My Children and was happy to see her. The stories bored me. Another example of daytime trying to do primetime. Lets hope that The Gates is a classic soap.

1 hour ago, dc11786 said:

 

Interesting to think about how someone could go from having only seen 1987-1988 "Loving" to "The City." I've always been curious about how many countries aired "The City" given that I imagine a lot of interest in "Loving" waned internationally as local networks were developing more of their own soap operas.

We had a string of US soaps that didn't air for long, probably because of the bad ratings (GL, ATWT, LOV, EON, SuBe all airing one season/year, from what I can remember). Only Santa Barbara aired in full and was popular. But to go back to The City, I think they thought that due to The City looking modern that it would have been more popular. So that's why they probably went with it after LOV cancellation here. Or maybe they got The City in some package deal. But at least they aired The City in full. 

26 minutes ago, Sapounopera said:

The City's first year was shown in Greece, as were 1983-88 Loving episodes. I doubt anyone made a connection between the two shows. What I liked about the City was the Melrose/CPW vibe and of course Morgan Fairchild. I was not that crazy about the production style, always prefered the classic soap type. I had read the conclusion of Loving and I was shocked with the Alden deaths. Prior to the internet I used to buy Star Magazine in order to read the soap section lol. The only character I knew was Alex and I never really cared for him. I knew Angie from All My Children and was happy to see her. The stories bored me. Another example of daytime trying to do primetime. Lets hope that The Gates is a classic soap.

I was shocked once I found out about the Alden deaths too! I was shocked! Shame I never got to watch that storyline play out. I remember I loved Stacey and Curtis. And then to find out they got killed off. And having loved Gwyn too, finding out it was her!! Oh my... 

As for The City, once I got into it, I really didn't mind the modern look. I still found a lot of the traditional elements in it to enjoy it. I loved Ally and Tony as a couple, love Jocelyn's storyline, loved Carla and Amy Van Horne, love Ted King... I did NOT enjoy Lorraine and that whole storyline. lol

2 hours ago, dc11786 said:

This is probably for the PC thread, but have you seen much of Karen Harris' "Port Charles" in 2000? I think that was probably the show at its strongest creatively. 

Yes, I think that's a lot of people's opinions then and now. I remember some of it, it was when I was gripped by the show too.

@dc11786 Thanks so much for your help with the date. 

I have not watched a lot of the Karen Harris period of PC but I need to. My main viewing was the Latham era (which felt very unpleasant, dark [who wanted to see Lucy blind her daughter???], and full of agendas) and the Hamner era (which was just a big mess). Then some of the arcs, most of which weren't that good aside from Time in a Bottle. 

You are right that too much of The City focused on unpleasant younger characters sniping at each other. I think the young people they created for the end of Loving to take over to The City weren't the best choices - I don't know what happened with Alimi Ballard but Frankie should have been a no-brainer. 

Characters like Danny were powered solely by the charisma of the actors and had little to offer themselves.

 

ABC Soaps Memories uploaded three episodes of Loving from October 1993 around Louie's death. 

Thanks @Forever8 . I'm glad that channel keeps occasionally putting up new early/mid '90s content.

 

Thanks so much @NothinButAttitude ! Almost impossible to find Loving of this period. 

Chris Marcantel and Perry Stephens look so gorgeous, it's almost distracting from their scenes.

The casting for the younger set was smart on a physical level, even if most of them are still learning to act. 

You can hear some of that clunky Marland dialogue, especially in the early pool scenes. 

Nice to see more of Pamela Blair, given her recent passing. 

Was this before Patricia Kalember cut her hair? 

20-21 cast members is entirely too many for a half-hour soap that's been on the air for less than a year.  I don't know what Agnes Nixon, Douglas Marland or ABCD was thinking, bombarding viewers with that many characters, when they don't know any of them and don't care about them.

Edited July 25, 20241 yr by Khan

Thursday, Aug. 4, 1983, thanks to the ABC primetime promo.

Edited July 25, 20241 yr by Franko