32 minutes ago, j swift said:

I'm surprised by those trying to justify this decision, I assume you get @Antoyne's point and there is no need to dispute it.  It strains credulity to even suggest that a White man created a domestic character named Mamie, either knowing that the name was popular, or that she would test well with the audience.

I think a lack of optics is a systemic problem in mainstream media when it comes to how ethic characters/characters of color are portrayed or even named. It’s a problem that continues to happen. These shows continue to have no black or ethnic voices in the writers room or in production, so there is no voice calling out how naming a domestic character “Mamie” would be problematic. I don’t have confidence that an elderly white man would know any better, especially if the name was based on someone he knew in real life. It’s a sad reality, and the show has never bothered to correct it, showing those in charge still don’t see it as an issue. 

Staying with Y&R, the same applies to Latino characters. Diego with the Newmans (once portrayed by all-American Greg Vaughn), and the never-seen Mrs. Martinez with the Abbots. These characters were either barely a blimp on the show’s radar or never-seen - did they have to infer they are Latino when a Latino presence is non-existent otherwise on the show? The optics problem continues to be pervasive to this day. 

 

Once Bill Bell made the decision to put Nathan Purdee on contract, the writing team took great steps to assure us the character's name was really "Nathan Hastings" rather than "Kong", as I believe it was fairly obvious "Kong" wasn't sustainable long-term (and likely should've never been used in the first place, lol).  

All they really needed to do for the (unfortunately named) Mamie was establish her given name was Mary or Marguerite or something. 

It seemed GLARING when Cricket gained a "real name" and Kong gained a "real name", but Mamie -- bless her heart --- she just stayed Mamie forever.   

I think the reason there is a certain disparity about the concept of Mamie and how viewers felt about her is how Y&R, compared to other soaps at the time, fit into the style of '40s Hollywood. '40s Hollywood too had black servants who were not given their own lives but also not used as comic relief. Y&R of that time was such an immersive experience so you were part of that world - the Abbott family breakfasts that viewers of the time cherished. They all felt like a family to those viewers, Mamie included, even as you then have to remember Mamie had no real voice or life of her own.

Mamie was allowed some dignity compared to many other soap maids of the era like Esther or Vivien, and a somewhat ambiguous placement. You remind yourself - well, that's not her family, and no matter how friendly they are to her, she is their servant, she has to do everything they don't want to do. But there's a certain blurring of lines which is difficult to figure out, especially compared to say, Vera on GL, where she had a very warm relationship with Alex but the undertone wasn't far off Scarlett O'Hara and Mammy at times. 

The ambiguity is down to no real matriarch in the Abbott family. This may be best shown in that completely delirious clip from early in Brenda's return where Dina visits the estate and has an extremely frosty encounter with Mamie, who barely bothers to defer to her. Then Jill is her usual pleasant self before she goes ten rounds with Dina. And you are reminded that Mamie essentially was the matriarch of the family, they just never fully say it out loud.

It's telling that when they finally do say the quiet part out loud with Mamie and John, someone quickly got cold feet, although I'm never sure if that was Bell, CBS, or viewers (we never heard of it getting the virulent reaction the Neil/Victoria pairing received).

Edited November 18, 20241 yr by DRW50

I don't know if she invented it, but Irna choosing to SORAS her characters, which gave the greenlight for others to do the same. Could you imagine a world where Bill never SORAS'ed Mike, and he learned about his true paternity in 1986? Plus, the practice was one of the first where soaps let go of their sense of realism, and its been an extremely slippery slope ever since.

4 minutes ago, Bright Eyes said:

I don't know if she invented it, but Irna choosing to SORAS her characters, which gave the greenlight for others to do the same. Could you imagine a world where Bill never SORAS'ed Mike, and he learned about his true paternity in 1986? Plus, the practice was one of the first where soaps let go of their sense of realism, and its been an extremely slippery slope ever since.

I feel like the art of SORAS is horribly misused. Instead of it happening naturally, in a way and out of a blue happenstance, you can sense when a soap is SORASing younger roles, and often... they do it too soon out of pure laziness.

The recon of Erica's Abortion on AMC and Viki/Victor abuse storyline on OLTL. I still say to this day. Either a uncle or a close relative did that to her or she was brainwashed again. 

17 hours ago, Franko said:

Agnes Nixon washed her hands of OLTL too soon.

Even in her book she focused so much on AMC and didnt say a word about Loving. 

9 minutes ago, Liberty City said:

I feel like the art of SORAS is horribly misused. Instead of it happening naturally, in a way and out of a blue happenstance, you can sense when a soap is SORASing younger roles, and often... they do it too soon out of pure laziness.

I hate it altogether and wish it never happened under any circumstance.

7 minutes ago, Marco Dane said:

The recon of Erica's Abortion on AMC and Viki/Victor abuse storyline on OLTL. I still say to this day. Either a uncle or a close relative did that to her or she was brainwashed again. 

Even in her book she focused so much on AMC and didnt say a word about Loving. 

Her book was excellent despite many errors but it was also weird because she didn't talk about GL or AW or Loving or really much at all about OLTL. Never before has any one thing been so Pine Valley-centric! All AMC all day long. If we hadn't known already where her heart lay, we found out then. 

27 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Her book was excellent despite many errors but it was also weird because she didn't talk about GL or AW or Loving or really much at all about OLTL. Never before has any one thing been so Pine Valley-centric! All AMC all day long. If we hadn't known already where her heart lay, we found out then. 

I hate to say this, but I always get somewhat annoyed whenever I see an interview with Agnes about the creation of OLTL she always has to explain how she created AMC first, but didn’t actually pitch it to anyone because she got cold feet. I feel like she never really gives a clear answer as to how she came up with OLTL imo. 

4 hours ago, Broderick said:

It would've been awfully easy to establish that the character's name was "Margaret" or "Mary" or "Marguerite" (which was actually the first actress's name, for heaven's sake!), and that Mamie was just a childhood nickname that she slowly abandoned as an adult.  

 

2 hours ago, j swift said:

I'm surprised by those trying to justify this decision, I assume you get @Antoyne's point and there is no need to dispute it. I'm not trying to start an argument, but it feels strange that people are straining credulity to support this lame choice.

Yeah I don’t really care if viewers at the time took to the character. When I started reading about Y&R history, I as a black man had an extremely visceral reaction seeing the name Mamie used for a black maid in the 80’s and the show never changed it. That’s extremely tone deaf to me.

20 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Marland and ATWT - the very limited number of partners with the Snyders. A number of the stories made sense individually. I appreciate, for instance, that Angel found her first love with Caleb, then got involved with Holden for protection, and finally found healing and peace with Seth. Still, one woman was with all three brothers. 

Then there was Holden/Caleb and Julie, and Holden/Caleb and Lily. I wonder if Marland had any regrets over Caleb/Lily as I don't remember it ever being revisited.

I can't give as much grace to the decisions made with the women in the Snyder family. Kirk going from Iva to Ellie. Iva and Emma dating the same man. If Marland had lived, I wouldn't be shocked if Iva had ended up with Ned Simon.

This led to a very sadistic place where Iva had to keep forgiving, accepting, apologizing...and worst of all, had to attend the wedding of her sister and her rapist. 

God, HOW could I have forgotten Iva having to accept her rapist into her family? Although it does tie in to his "let's send everyone to therapy" trope.

Going all the way back to the LnL rape ... I ran upon this, today. 

 I doubt I would tolerate Glo at all plus I am NOT an LnL fan, You can't be iconic if you begin with rape. 

 

I like to say that if Ron Carlivati had been writing for Glo he'd have killed off Luke & brought back Geary as a guy named Myron, with a sweater vest, pocket protector, glasses & introduced him to Laura! Much better solution to the rape. 

About Luke & Laura -- as a kid in 1979, I never understood why there was a rape in the first place.  

If you'd given me a typewriter, a blank sheet of paper, Genie Francis, Tony Geary, Kin Shriner, a disco, and Herb Alpert's "Rise", I wouldn't have crafted a "rape".  

I would've written a seduction -- a little misunderstanding or miscommunication between Laura & Scotty, a kind-hearted and unexpected gesture from Luke (a knick-knack or a flower), and a gloomy event on the horizon (the death of Mitch Williams).  Put Luke and Laura in the disco, turn on the music, let them dance, let him seduce her, let her respond, let them have sex.  

And the subsequent storyline would've been the two of them "re-framing" what happened.  She could convince herself he'd raped her, and then remind herself he hadn't.  He could remind himself she'd willingly responded, and then convince himself she hadn't.  

To me, that would've been far more interesting and opened far more complex emotions than what Monty and Company actually wrote.  And it would've gotten the two characters to the same destination without the absurd "I'm in love with my rapist" aspect of it.  

7 hours ago, j swift said:

And they kept calling her that in 2024.

I mean, on a show where Cricket has been known as Christine for decades now, a wealthy black woman is still being called Mamie by the children of her former employer.  And she never corrected them and asked to be referenced by her actual name.

I think her actual name was Mamie. Another poster stated that she was named after Bell's housekeeper. White people such as First Lady Mamie Eisenhower also had the nickname Mamie as her real name was Mary.

Regardless naming a black person Mamie is a no-go because of its similarity to "mammy".

6 hours ago, Faulkner said:

Wait, is Mamie Johnson not her real name? There are lots of Black (and white) women, even members of my family, of that generation and older named “Mamie.” I do understand the sentiment that naming a Black domestic worker “Mamie” isn’t the best move.

I do wish Y&R were bold enough to address the elephant in the room about Mamie’s role in the Abbott family. The way Jill treated and continues to treat her is very disrespectful (and not without its own racial dynamics). Obviously, not all Black folk are raised the same, but I never see Lily, Devon, and Nate tell Jill to chill with her abuse toward Mamie. Very few Black people would allow an elder matriarch be spoken to that way.

Jill's abuse to Mamie felt racist, but in all fairness she was just as abusive to Esther.

Even Katherine spoke to Esther like a child. 

2 hours ago, YRfan23 said:

I hate to say this, but I always get somewhat annoyed whenever I see an interview with Agnes about the creation of OLTL she always has to explain how she created AMC first, but didn’t actually pitch it to anyone because she got cold feet. I feel like she never really gives a clear answer as to how she came up with OLTL imo. 

Something about this is nagging at me. I think that she did pitch AMC, I think to NBC, which seems logical since she was in the process of saving Another World from early cancelation. But, to be sure is going to require looking things up. If I recall the whole schmiel correctly at this point the story says she put it in a drawer - unless it was in a box?

And, wasn't the reason she then wrote OLTL because ABC asked her to write it?