I don't think the Jean Stapleton version would have had the same appeal.

Jean lacked that combination of elegance, warmth and intelligence that Angela brought to the role.

Maybe Jean was just too associated with Edith Bunker. I never saw her later TV movie or Baghdad Cafe. Was she able to create a completely different character?

8 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Maybe Jean was just too associated with Edith Bunker.

I agree.  It's not impossible for TV audiences to accept an actor as a new character after watching them for so long as another character, but it takes a lot of effort and a willingness on the actor's part to play against type.  Betty White, for instance, went from playing the "happy homewrecker," Sue Ann Nivens, on "The Mary Tyler Moore Show," to playing the resident dimwit, Rose Nylund, on "The Golden Girls," with a brief stopover as snobbish Ellen Harper Jackson on "Mama's Family" in between.  But for the few Betty Whites in TV land who could transition like that, there were and are other actors who either kept playing variations of the same character, or who tried and tried and tried to shake off their most popular roles on TV and never could.

@Khan I wonder how far they got with Jean in the role? She was announced in March in the CBS pilot presentation and by May Angela was in the role.

I haven't been able to find any reports of what went down regarding the transition. I wonder if anyone else was considered and if Angela was looking to do a series at that time.

31 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

@Khan I wonder how far they got with Jean in the role? She was announced in March in the CBS pilot presentation and by May Angela was in the role.

I haven't been able to find any reports of what went down regarding the transition. I wonder if anyone else was considered and if Angela was looking to do a series at that time.

Angela was looking to get into series television. Her agents provided her with two pilot options. The first was a sitcom from Norman Lear and the second was Murder, She Wrote. Angela had meetings on both, but quickly decided that Murder, She Wrote, was the project she wanted to do and that the character of Jessica she could do something with.

After that, the process was very quick so I don't believe Jean Stapleton went very far. What I do observe is the characterization of Jessica as a dotty New Englander in the first half dozen episodes seemed slanted for Jean, and once those episodes were finished, the writers saw how Angela's natural warmth and intelligence translated onscreen, and the character became what she was for the rest of the run. 

That all makes sense. I wonder if Jean decided it wasn't a good fit or when Angela expressed interest they pounced. So much bts stuff goes on that we are not privy to.

I was reading how Elizabeth Montgomery came to do Bewitched when Tammy Grimes had first dibs. Lots of back and forth and negotiating from all sides.

It might have been as simple as Jean's people wanted too much money.

Who knows ?

1 hour ago, DaytimeFan said:

The first was a sitcom from Norman Lear. 

By any chance, was that P.O.P.? NBC aired that pilot in 1984. It starred Charles Durning as a con artist reuniting with his ex-wife, played by -- wait for it -- Bea Arthur.

1 hour ago, Paul Raven said:

That all makes sense. I wonder if Jean decided it wasn't a good fit or when Angela expressed interest they pounced. So much bts stuff goes on that we are not privy to.

I was reading how Elizabeth Montgomery came to do Bewitched when Tammy Grimes had first dibs. Lots of back and forth and negotiating from all sides.

It might have been as simple as Jean's people wanted too much money.

Who knows ?

The official party line from Angela was Jean was simply too tired after doing All In The Family and wanted a break from series television after considering the amount of work that would have been involved in an hour long series as lead.

25 minutes ago, Franko said:

By any chance, was that P.O.P.? NBC aired that pilot in 1984. It starred Charles Durning as a con artist reuniting with his ex-wife, played by -- wait for it -- Bea Arthur.

The timing of it sounds right and Bea Arthur was a close friend of Angela's so she might have tipped her off about the project. 

On 6/24/2024 at 10:31 PM, kalbir said:

100% this. Angela Lansbury and Murder, She Wrote deserved to have a proper farewell and not the sabotage that Les Moonves inflicted. He will forever be on my s--- list for that.

Angela was sweet and unassuming yet savage at the same time. Her most savage moments IMO:

Beating the diva of all divas of 1980s primetime soaps Joan Collins to become the highest-rated drama across the broadcast networks. I was impressed that Joan Collins posted a memoriam to Angela on her social media, that was very classy of her to do so.

Joan had known Angela from when she first arrived in Hollywood. They infamously did a song and dance number at the Oscars one year with Dana Wynter that flopped hard with all the best actress nominees they were teasing. They also shared a close mutual friend in Robert Wagner. 

Jean speaks about MSW here, but it's phrased as her "turning it down" because she didn't think the role was the right fit for her.

 

And Angela talks about the MSW audience here:

 

In his own Archive of American Television interview, co-creator William Link suggests that Jean Stapleton was still mourning the recent loss of her husband, Bill Putch, and therefore wasn't up to taking on the lead in a new series.  In any event, once she passed on the role, Link, Richard Levinson and Peter S. Fischer heard that Angela Lansbury was interested in working in television.  Levinson and Link were fans of her stage work, but because she wasn't as well-known at the time in TV, they were afraid CBS's then-president Harvey Shepherd would pass on putting out feelers to her agent.  Instead, Link says, Shepherd loved the idea and gave the three his blessing to reach out to her and see if she were interested.

5 hours ago, DaytimeFan said:

What I do observe is the characterization of Jessica as a dotty New Englander in the first half dozen episodes seemed slanted for Jean, and once those episodes were finished, the writers saw how Angela's natural warmth and intelligence translated onscreen, and the character became what she was for the rest of the run. 

I agree.  For sure, by the start of S2, the classic characterization of J.B. Fletcher as an everywoman was firmly in place.  The humor in the stories, therefore, pivoted to the guest stars and recurring characters, with J.B. as the center of calm in the middle of all the mayhem. 

Such was the formula that MSW used for most of its' "golden age," through the 1990-91 season.  Once Peter S. Fischer departed in 1991, and especially after Lansbury assumed control a year later, a lot of the folksy, quirky humor evaporated, with everyone (besides William Windom/Seth and occasionally Ron Masak/Mort) playing it straight like Lansbury.  Unfortunately, this was also the period when the mysteries themselves became less challenging, so that, by 1994 or so, if you're still watching MSW, it's strictly for Lansbury.

17 hours ago, kalbir said:

Murder, She Wrote was a show that I took for granted as a kid/teen, but I appreciate it so much more as an adult.

Same here.  I'd watch the show occasionally with my mom, who is a big crime/mystery buff, but I wasn't a true fan until 2012, when Mama Khan and I would binge-watch it on Netflix as a way of getting our minds off my dad's unexpected passing.  That's when I truly understood why millions around the world love it (and her) to this day.

Edited September 10, 20241 yr by Khan

A look back at Murder, She Wrote ratings in relation to other dramas on the broadcast networks and CBS scripted shows during its first 11 seasons.

1984/85: 8th. 5th among dramas, after Dynasty (#1), Dallas (2nd), The A-Team (6th), Simon & Simon (7th).  3rd among CBS scripted shows, after Dallas and Simon & Simon.

1985/86 to 1989/90: 3rd, 4th, 9th, 8th, 13th. Highest-rated drama and CBS's highest-rated scripted show.

1990/91 and 1991/92: 12th and 8th. Highest-rated drama. 3rd among CBS scripted shows, after Murphy Brown (6th and 3rd) and Designing Women (10th and 6th).

1992/93 and 1993/94: 5th and 11th. Highest-rated drama. 2nd among CBS scripted shows, after Murphy Brown (4th and 9th).

1994/95: 8th. 3rd among dramas, after ER first season (2nd) and NYPD Blue (7th). CBS's highest-rated scripted show.

Edited September 15, 20241 yr by kalbir

I do agree Jessica had a different vibe in season 1 then in later seasons.  

It also sounded like there was less room for collobaration in the early years...and that might have been why Jean turned down the part.

 

1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

I do agree Jessica had a different vibe in season 1 then in later seasons.

In a way, it works perfectly for where Jessica is supposed to be at that point in her life.  Being a well-regarded mystery writer was still relatively new to her, so she hadn't developed a sense of sophistication about it all.  If she had remained that way after S1, there's a good chance that her "eccentric New Englander" persona would've worn thin with the audience.

I was reading a MSW book that has appearances from Dennis Stanton and Michael Haggerty. I think there was some talk about Stanton earlier in the thread, but what did you think of Haggerty?  

Edited September 18, 20241 yr by DRW50

3 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I was reading a MSW book that has appearances from Dennis Stanton and Michael Haggerty. I think there was some talk about Stanton earlier in the thread, but what did you think of Haggerty?  

I liked Haggarty early on as he brought on some international flair but he  starts wearing on my nerves in his later appearances when he is just manipulating and using Jessica. That said Cariou and Lansbury had some amazing chemistry together each time he appeared. 

I’d say Michael is my 3rd favorite recurring character after Dennis and Harry.

14 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I think there was some talk about Stanton earlier in the thread, but what did you think of Haggerty?  

My thoughts pretty much echo @soapfan770's: it's always a treat to see Len Cariou and Angela Lansbury together, given their history.  After his first couple of appearances, however, Michael Haggerty does start to wear out his welcome a bit.  Also, in his last appearance on the show, "Sugar & Spice, Malice & Vice" (S9, episode 7), they pretty much acknowledge that, with the real-life Cold War coming to a close, a character like Haggerty isn't as relevant anymore - and indeed, that is the last time we see or hear from him (books notwithstanding).  Of course, I'd take another appearance from Haggerty over one from Grady any day, lol!

10 hours ago, soapfan770 said:

I’d say Michael is my 3rd favorite recurring character after Dennis and Harry.

My favorite recurring character - hands down - is Seth Hazlitt, followed by Harry McGraw and Lt. Artie Gelber.

To me, Harry is one of the best TV gumshoes I've come across - a modern-day Sam Spade, if you will, with a dash of Jim Rockford's propensity for getting himself into the most comically absurd messes; and IMO, they couldn't have found a better actor to portray him than Jerry Orbach.  EP/Showrunner Tom Sawyer tried to replicate Harry in the later seasons (after Orbach's "Law & Order" gig ruled out further appearances) with the more Mike Hammer-like Charlie Garrett, played by Wayne Rogers, but Charlie was such a pale imitation.

Overall, I loved Dennis Stanton, too, but his last appearance (in "Ship of Thieves," S9, episode 20) was a total letdown.  Not only was he not featured as much - I could've used more of him and less of Mary Wickes' klepto and her wimpy son - but a lot of his panache was gone as well.  It's clear that Peter S. Fischer was the only one who could write for that particular character.

 

Edited September 18, 20241 yr by Khan