OLTL: Discussion for the week December 28

[marceline]

LMAO! I love TSJ but that's funny!

[All My Shadows]

What are you even talking about? I don't recall anyone being blind enough to believe that Matthew wasn't gonna gravitate to the Twat du TnTot. Once Dani stepped into the picture, it became crystal clear to everyone where the story was gonna go, so yes you were "right all along" but so were half of the viewing audience who saw this ish coming from a mile away.

[Doyen]

I wasn't even talkng about Dani, not really.  When Destiny debuted (approx. six months before Dani) I snickered at the idea some had about the possibility of two of them eventually being a couple.   I knew that was never going to happen.  And then when Dani came on, please...like you said, it became that much more obvious that it was curtains on any prospect for Mattstiny.  In this scenario, Dani isn't really an alternative -- even if she weren't in the picture, Matthew and Destiny as a couple would be fodder for disbelief.  It was never gonna happen; Dani or no Dani.  

[Vee]

I don't think it's hard to believe at all. I'd believe it with the right actress. As for the romance itself, I think you're wrong. It was going to happen; it was practically a decree from on high for most of the year. Frons invented Destiny for this purpose and it was signposted from day one. Which is part of why I was so bored with the idea and hard on Edmonds' lack of improvement. It was a cliched story that didn't change and wasn't made worthy or elevated by the young actors. It could be better with someone better.

Also, Des debuted nine or ten months before Dani.

[DeliaIrisFan]

So many things...

First of all, I'm one white male viewer who strongly objects to this turn in the Destiny story/character and the message it sends about black women. I also do have to question when I read that people think Destiny is too "pushy," because actually she's been one of the least annoying teens I've seen on soaps in a while. Compared to what obnoxious things white teens get away with on soaps, I just don't see it. And I really don't understand anyone gloating about having been right that the show would never allow Destiny to be a viable love interest for Matthew. After the beautiful women that "not conventionally attractive" white male characters like Asa, Bo, etc. have been with over the years, I see no possible explanation for what's happening with Destiny that doesn't involve racism and/or sexism. I saw it coming from the moment Destiny was introduced, too, but I don't think that's a cause for celebration? As for the actress, I actually don't think she's the worst on the show, by a long shot. Sometimes I've found her genuinely endearing, more often her delivery does make me cringe. But it's a moot point - I agree that, be it a recast, an acting coach, or even integrating her more with experienced vets to try to help her grow as an actress, there were so many ways to deal with the situation if the actress was not working out. This abrupt shift to a skinny blonde as Matthew's love interest is not one of them.

I must take exception, though, with equating the inherent racist undertones in the Destiny vs. Daniella story with the idea that Tea is being "propped" at the expense of Blair. First of all, I don't even understand what the motive for such a conspiracy would be. Tea is a Latina character played by a Latina actress; Blair is a formerly(?) multiracial character whose first portrayer, an Asian-American actress, was replaced with a blonde Southern belle. I think KDP's Blair's long and prominent tenure with the show after what came before for her character says more about its troubling history with diversity than anything that has happened with Destiny to date. I wasn't even watching at the time of the recast, but I can't even wrap my mind around what a jarring thing it must have been.

I normally try to stay out of Blair vs. Tea debates, because I don't really think either woman "deserves" to "win" Todd, which is what I'm always afraid it will sound like if I weigh in. I love Tea, but I've actually grown to like Blair over the years and couldn't imagine the show without her. That said, Tea was degraded for years as Todd's second choice behind the now blonde Blair - and continues to be. IMO, it's Todd that's being propped up, as he has been for some time, whether he's been with Blair or Tea or Marty or whoever. As far as I can see, Tea was only brought back because Todd was written into a corner (even more of a corner than he was already in, as the orchestrator of a gang rape). Blair had renounced him and had quite a moving realization about how destructive he had been for her and her children. I think it was decided that the horrible things Todd did to Tea were less fresh in our collective memories and she would be more palatable as a love interest for him right now. And giving them a long lost daughter even makes it possible to have a do-over of the Todd/Starr relationship. Starr was, after all, the central heroine of the show, being shoved down our throats ad nauseum, up until Todd blackmailed her ob/gyn to steal her baby and tell her that it was dead, which kind of put a damper on Todd as the doting patriarch. In a few months' time, I'm sure Todd and Dani will be playing that same dynamic, without the creepy history. The lengths to which this show has gone to keep Todd as its center is an insult to women, and the fact that Destiny is being sacrificed for that is an insult to people of color, but IMO Tea has nothing to do with that. I don't think that keeping her in Todd's universe, let alone saddling her with one of his progeny, is doing Tea/FL any favors. I would rather she be far away from that quagmire.

All of that being said, as a gay man, it did mean something to me to see that beautifully done love scene between Kyle and Fish this week. I don't see it as a competition between gay visibility vs. black visibility, and I definitely don't see what happened this week to be a clear "win" for sexual diversity in any case. The broader handling of LGBT characters and issues on OLTL, like racial issues, is sure to continue to be problematic - in fact, the plot device of Nick using his gay-bashing to come between Kyle and Fish really appalled me. And I have no illusions that Kyle and Fish won't most likely vanish at some point down the road, unless the show is canceled really soon. Until this week, though, what happened between Kyle and Fish had never been allowed to air in daytime TV, and for me that's something.

Maybe it is insensitive and self-involved for me to see that as any kind of progress, but I'm not exactly celebrating and I'm definitely not blind to what's happening on this show in the treatment of women and as far as racial diversity. I'm truly sorry about it, in fact, for whatever that's worth. In a way, these soaps have been socially backwards for so long that it's almost like any sign of progress is just going to draw attention to ten more areas in which they are woefully behind. Even when the Matthew/Destiny story was first starting and showed promise, we had Matthew going on about how he'd rather die than live the rest of his life in a wheelchair - and Destiny cheering him on - which was horribly offensive to differently abled people. Yet, it was a cliched soap opera story that's been done countless times, usually with that same exact dialogue. In spite of all of that, I feel like OLTL has really been trying, especially in the past year. I'm not sure what the appropriate balance is between acknowledging progress on one front while holding the show accountable for the horrid social messages that it continues to reinforce. The fact that I'm still watching soaps after being disappointed about these kinds of issues so many times over the better part of twenty years probably means that I'm too willing to accept any crumb.

[Vee]

Two words: Shenell Edmonds.

And there you go.

But they did put her with other people. They promoted the hell out of her time with Tuc Watkins, promising they would be great together. They were just okay. They gave her two of the finest black character actors around as her parents. They gave her plenty of face time with Hillary B. Smith and Bob Woods. It just didn't fly.

I'm with you in that I think ending the story here (if that happens) would send a bad message, and I think they should recast the role of Destiny. But I have no real objection to OLTL cutting their losses on Edmonds herself. None whatsoever.

As for Blair and Tea, I think there is a perception among some fans that the "underdogs" of the past year - Blair and Destiny - are going under the wheels of the bus for Tea and her child. I agree with some of that in terms of how Blair's been written and how Destiny is being cycled out of Matthew's love life without an apparent recast, but I don't agree that Shenell Edmonds earned her shot at the big time.

Not really. It wasn't a decision based out of race - it was Michael Malone's crazy idea. He'd always envisioned Blair as a Southern belle, a "Scarlett O'Hara," but in '91 they'd hired Mia Korf simply because she was the best actress for the role, regardless of race. And that's very commendable, but when she left and it came time to recast, Malone apparently insisted on going for his Scarlett archetype even if it would make fans' eyes boggle. I think KDP owns the role now and I wouldn't want anyone else, but I also think Malone's choice was a truly bizarre example of a writer looking so far beyond racial issues that he went into a strange world of fantasy that fans struggled to follow behind.

I still want KDP's Blair to reclaim her grasp of the Japanese language, however. It's in continuity, bitches! What are you gonna do?!

I don't buy that. Tea lost Todd because Tea left the show in 2000. That's the only reason it happened that way. If FL had come back long-term before 2008 I've no doubt they'd have been playing this triangle for many years by now, and in most instances I think OLTL has shown more of a vested interest in presenting Tea as the crooked heroine and Blair as the jolly whore. They enjoy writing Tea as bad, but they always feel the need to pull back, try to make her into Lily Walsh (a role that doesn't suit FL's abilities), and trash Blair or Ross or someone else for propping that FL does not need, has never needed. I don't know what that is but the actresses have always played against that kind of bias, to Florencia and KDP's credit.

That's very true, too. And we do agree that Tea should be allowed to get away from Todd. They drag each other down.

Not me. It was clearly presented this week as a symptom of his PTSD and Nick's confession scene was intended as (and was, to me) heartbreaking.

[DRW50]

I don't remember Tea being degraded for years for Blair, and I certainly don't see that happening now. They have tried to tell us again and again over the past year that Todd vastly prefers Tea to Blair. They even had him picture Tea while he was dancing with Blair. If this romance is not working, it's because TSJ and FL lack chemistry and TSJ, as always, looks bored to tears. He even tanked the Todd/Tea wedding, which, thanks also to FL's misplaced histrionics, turned into one of the dumbest scenes on the show last year.

During the time that the show has actually written for Todd and Tea, Tea has always come first. They were so desperate to prop Tea in her early days with Todd, they even had Blair make racist remarks about Tea, and had Tea shoved out a window and stagger into court as the martyr of the ages. Tea was so beloved by them that a woman who had nearly lost her life and had lost her near full term baby was a villain, and a woman who stole a child from its near-death mother because Todd waved a big check under her nose was a heroine.

Blair remained a non-threat to Tea for the remainder of FL's first run on the show. While Tea spent most of 1998 trying to "save" Todd, and turning his physical and mental abuse of her into a love story, Blair was dating Sam Rappaport. She had a few scenes with Todd about getting custody of Starr and it was repeatedly made clear that they no longer had any romantic interest in each other. After the lovely glass coffin wedding ceremony and Howarth's departure, John Sykes and RJ were shoved at Tea, in some desperate attempt to keep her a viable character. Blair was stuck scheming with Max.

The only time Tea came second to Blair was in her brief 2002 return, when the show had no plans to keep her around. And this was when Todd had spent a year covering up his decision to sell Blair's baby and tell her that her child was dead, so what exactly did Blair win?

Now we have a history that basically says Todd loved Marty, had kids with some annoying woman who clings to him, and then loved Tea. And just like the last time, Tea has people who follow her around telling her how wonderful she is, and every stupid decision she makes is somehow passed off as being noble and special. The only real difference is that now Todd is too generic to really abuse her the way she used to enjoy him abusing her. So Mary Sue Masochist has been replaced by Mary Sue.

[Vee]

I don't think TSJ and FL lack chemistry. On a basic level, they're a lot of fun together. But when they try to bring "love" into Todd and Tea's twisted psychological equation it falls apart. I just think the story doesn't work, the writing is severely lacking, the characterization has been terrible and TSJ is on autopilot. It seems clear his intention is and has been for some time that Todd doesn't really love anything but himself and his own gratification.

And that's a valid point of view - Roger Howarth subverted the writing of Todd in similar ways. But neither of them were willing to keep the audience in mind.

And you're right, Tea's 2002 return was short-term, period. She was never going to stick around. Her function was to convince Todd he loved Blair and to go back and fight for her and the kids - something today's writers seem to have forgotten as Tea harangues Todd and Blair about he broke her heart and ditched her. That's not how those scenes played in '02.

[Soapsuds]

That really touched my heart even though Nick was muniplating the situation with Fish and Kyle.

[DeeeDee]

Exactly.

Plus minorities no matter HOW attractive NEVER win romantic triangles on television.

[Vee]

I won't do us all the disservice of counting Lily Winters as a minority on Y&R.

[DeeeDee]

There's hope for you yet. lol

[Leia]

It's not self-involved at all. What OLTL has been able to achieve with Kish is so very worthy of celebration. I am not advocating the idea that there is a competition between gay visibility and minority visibility as much as I am taking exception with tptb's unwillingness to balance the two issues. Destiny's character losing out romantically to Danielle would not be as much as a problem if we had a clear idea of what tptb have planned next for her character. But we don't because tptb never plan what to do next with the minority characters once they've served their purpose. Actually, that's incorrect. Instead of moving minorities into their next story which would follow the dictum of logic, we'll soon see yet another minority shuffled into the challenge and awe inspiring platonic support system. Though the circumstantial aspects of the stories differ it was the same practice applied to Rachel and Layla. Rachel was given profound emotional breakthrough scenes opposite Tea and was then immediately pushed into the role of renewing her friendship with Tea whether it made sense or not. Layla wasn't allowed to have any emotional repercussions after Fish used her to cloak his sexuality and she has become his support system quietly shuffled to the backburner. Is it too much to ask for tptb to lay a storyline for those characters as well?

Like you, I'm very willing to accept any crumb so I'll have to be satisfied because there isn't anything that can be done to change things. The press is too busy right now worrying about the demise of daytime to cover the issues and the minority fanbase is much too disillusioned and fractured to unite to do anything about it.

[Vee]

I think Layla had a lot of material with Oliver after it came out that he was gay. Those scenes were the best work she's ever done and I think they've come back to that beat a couple times since. Did they become BFFs a bit fast? Yes, but I bought it because the writing in that story was very solid and very tuned to caring for both Fish and Layla.

According to spoilers Layla and Rachel both have stories coming up. I hope they're worthy of the women.

[Leia]

I hope they are worthy as well. I'm sorely disappointed in Rachel and Layla's lack of story especially Rachel who as a character has so much rich history on the show. I think it was wise for OLTL to keep both characters on the show-for that they set themselves apart-but that only works if the characters have consistent enough stories and identities of their own.