If Joss doesn't ask Marti Noxon to help out.

I didn't mention her for a reason. She wrote one of my favorite episodes, "I Only Have Eyes for You". But when she never should have been made EP of Buffy, she's not that creative.

Since the Discussion thread, has started going off episode talk, I thought it might be an opportunity to start discussing our favorite Villains over here.

Mine are Sheila and David Kimball.

What I liked most about Sheila was that Bill Bell could have her doing the most awful things, and yet sill she always came off as having some deep down hurt and motivation that caused her to act like she did. Most of her crimes were the result of being backed into a corner. You have to be a great villain to make a large number of people pick up an entirely new soap opera. Unfortunately Bradley Bell once again took one of his fathers great characters and massacred the [!@#$%^&*] out of her. LML didn't help by creating Pheila which I wish they would reverse on B&B. If they don't, it would be nice if KB came back as Sugar, last played by Robin Mattson, who had her face changed to switch places with Sheila. She could come on as a reformed former criminal and give KB a clean slate and new character.

David Kimball was just awesome. Maybe it's because of my hatred for Nina, but I rooted for him. My favorite thing was when he went to the plastic surgeon to have his face changed into someone else only to have the doctor carve Killer into his forehead. AWESOME!!

David and Sheila were great characters. I can't say I rooted for them, but I enjoyed watching their schemes, even as I eventually wanted them to pay the piper.

I also liked Veronica Landers. I thought she was very interesting, as was her romance with Miguel mixed with her madness. She also killed off the biggest dead weight on the show at the time, Josh Landers.

I loved to hate David & Sheila, so in that way they were awesome villains. CE's Adam is the first & probably only time I have ever found myself rooting for a villain, which is all the more amazing because Adam is such a pig. Darn you, CE! I am not the sort of viewer who typically roots for villains. I do like anti-heroes, like Erica Kane and Carly Tenney, but I don't think they can rightly be described as villainous.

My favorite villain on prime-time is Benjamin Linus on Lost, though, even then, I love it when Sayid or someone puts the hurt on him.

Sylph asked about the psychological explanation for Adam. I confess, I don't really know. Bad Zoe had the line of the night:

That beating that he took in prison, caused brain damage to the part of the brain that differentiates between right and wrong. When it is diagnosed he can be operated on and fixed.

I wrote to Damon Jacobs, who acts as "Soap Shrink" for Marlena Delacroix (e.g., here is his recent interview with James DePaiva). Damon runs his own blog, linked to his book, about the "Shouldless" philosophy.

Anyway, I wrote to Damon and asked:

Hi Damon: I hope you don't mind this question.

Over at SoapOperaNetwork, there is [some interest in] a "diagnosis" (I don't like that label) of Adam. The gist is that many understand why Adam would be angry and resentful (at the way the Newmans refused to welcome him, and also at Jack framing him for the whole diary episode). But they do not understand how that could have led to injecting botox into the eye, or gaslighting Ashley (whom he hates because both Jack and Victor love her, but who herself has been sweet and wonderful to him), or sleeping with both Heather AND

Rafe

just to keep them quiet and on his side....

Adam's portrayer, Chris Engen, has so far played a few small beats of regret...so "psychopath" doesn't sit very well either.

While Adam's dad Victor is "ruthless" (if one reverts to the genetic account), environment usually trumps genetics. And Adam grew up with his sweet, blind mother Hope, and was apparent a prince of boy...did his chores...excelled academically so he got through Harvard on a full-ride scholarship.

If you have anything SoapShrink to post about him, people are [seeking some guidance] to explain his apparently unmotivated evil.

Damon wrote back, and gave me permission to post his early thoughts:

These are some great questions. I have also wondered what the heck is going on with Adam. His behavior is certainly consistent with someone with "Antisocial Personality Disorder," in that he appears capable of doing some really horrible things with no remorse or conscience. But as you astutely pointed out, Engen has thrown in some nuances of regret. That seems to be Engen's interpretation, versus what is in the script. It will be interesting to see how the next actor portrays him.

I think in order for us to "diagnose" or understand Adam better, we need to understand his background prior to 2008. We know Hope was loving, but what about his stepfather Cliff? In the real world, his penchant for committing crimes suggests an abusive background. It is probable that Hope may not have been able to protect Adam from verbal/physical abuse growing up, and perhaps Adam has learned from Cliff how to do such horrible things with minimal regret. If Adam was abused, it certainly would help to explain why he's so pissed at Victor.

I don't subscribe that people's "ruthlessness" are completely inherited. Certain temperaments, perhaps. But the ability to gaslight your stepmother and kill your unborn sibling is a learned behavior, IMO. As far as the

Rafe

story, I'm interested in seeing how that will play out. Will Adam simply use

Rafe

as a tool to avoid consequences for his actions? Or will Adam actually have a genuine interest in

Rafe

? With this new actor playing Adam it's anyone's guess.

That didn't quite answer the question, I know. But I guess in the real world I would say, "He displays Antisocial Traits, but we need more information." Thank you for asking me though!

Edited June 22, 200916 yr by MarkH

Jane and Joss know how to plan and plot properly which MAB and her henchmen are lacking. Plus they can write incredible dialogue and special episodes.

But as cara mia pointed out, they have months to work on their 22-episode season (without having to deal with rewrites/shooting/actors/directors/etc), and almost a full month to write and perfect a script.

As opposed to three-five days, which is how daytime works.

ETA: I'm not saying they COULDN'T do it, just that we can't fairly judge based on the length of time they have to perfect the quality of their primetime work.

In essence, daytime pretty much offers up as a "final draft" what most primetime writers consider to be a "first draft"

Edited June 22, 200916 yr by brimike

Does anyone think Nelson, when referring to Maria as the Obama of soaps, is making a thinly veiled reference to Steve Frame's acronym in his signature?

Maria Arena Bell's lack of writing skills and the fact she wrote a few scripts and left daytime for 20 years is pretty apparent on this show. Her plotting style is atrocious, her storytelling is repetitive, and she doesn't know how to properly integrate and create new characters. Paring her with both Sheffer and Hamner was not a wise choice, IMO. Sheffer has plotting problems of his own, and Hamner's a second-rate primetime writer that specializes in episodic television that's writing for a daily soap. This really makes no sense. A lot was right between November 08 to February 09, but a lot of these problems were apparent even back then, and they're only getting worse now.

Also, does it make any sense that MAB's apparently out to correct the mistakes of LML's regime, yet she keeps LML's Co-HW, Scott Hamner, as one of her Co-HW's? And let's not forget that Hamner's probably LML's closest professional friendship.

MAB lets all of this happen, the show right now feels like Latham's Y&R with a slower pace and less variety of stories and characters.

Edited June 22, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

I could buy that Adam was born generally anti-social and nasty but that his love for his extraordinary mother and a steady diet of church & hard work on the farm kept him on the straight & narrow. His mother's death may been the equivalent of letting the genie out of the bottle. The problem for me is that this is not character-based writing but plot driven writing. There is no logical reason for Adam to pick on Ashley when Victor is in the same house! He's doing this just because (MY PREDICTION), TPTB want to set up a baby switch. If Adam were going to target an innocent woman as a way to express his wrath, it would be Heather or Victoria and not Ashley.

Another thing, why is Ashley so nice? Why was the one who got Adam out of jail? If this were Victor's choice -- and why not, he may have felt guilt about Hope -- and Ashley were wary about Adam and her typical snooty self, then the whole story would play so much better, and Adam's lack of feeling towards Ashley would make sense. If Adam were doing this to NIKKI, I don't think anyone would be questioning the writing. But Ashley? No. Just not credible in any way. Even Ted Bundy "cared" about the people who worked alongside and warned his female co-workers to watch out for strangers. It's beyond monstrous for Adam to do this to Ashley when he knows how much she cares for him.

Also, does it make any sense that MAB's apparently out to correct the mistakes of LML's regime, yet she keeps LML's Co-HW, Scott Hamner, as one of her Co-HW's? And let's not forget that Hamner's probably LML's closest professional friendship.

MAB lets all of this happen, the show right now feels like Latham's Y&R with a slower pace and less variety of stories and characters.

Exactly. No one ever seems to learn in daytime. Scott Hamner is a terrible storyteller. It was bad enough he and his murder mysteries mucked up PC, but also Y&R(with Carmen and JiMin). But even worse was his solo HW stint at PC. However short it was, it was terrible television.

General Homicide was convoluted bullsh!t from the get-go. And LML had the nerve to actually brag about that story to the soap press when the Carmen Mesta murder happened!?

Edited June 22, 200916 yr by bellcurve

I keep forgetting LML was headwriter of PC. At the time there was some stuff I liked but some I absolutely loathed, like the way they kept dragging Lucy down to promote Eve, especially that story where she drained the gas from Eve's car and Serena was blinded in a car crash.

I keep forgetting LML was headwriter of PC. At the time there was some stuff I liked but some I absolutely loathed, like the way they kept dragging Lucy down to promote Eve, especially that story where she drained the gas from Eve's car and Serena was blinded in a car crash.

Let's not forget Race Car Bed Sex, Matt The Mancusi Mobster, Frank addicted to DL-56, Julie "Faking" a Pregnancy In Ferncliff, Lucy the AIDS advocate having unprotected sex with Scott in the Everglades, the list goes on...

LML/Hamner defenders should be ashamed of themselves.

What was the race car bed? Karen and Joe? I don't remember that.

Poor Frank. He was actually one of my favorite characters on the show, I don't know how he survived some of the trashy plots of that era, like spying on Karen with a telescope, planting panties in Joe's apartment. And then the story where he took in the big-busted ward...didn't he start sleeping with her? Lark, I think her name was.

And Y&R does it's first gay storyline,

and we're supposed to believe that Rafe is so hard up for sex that he'd go against his aunt and his ethics as an atty purely for sex?

What kind of message is that?

i dont think that the story is about him being hard up for sex. i think the story is actually more about rafe falling for adam, whom he has been friends with formonths now. that he is in love with him. its plot driven, but thats the plot, not sex, IMHO anyways. they should have done a better job in this by showing rafe having a crush on adam all this time, but knowing it will never be more...

CF is just so emotionless and delivers in such a dismal manner. Everything that the girls says falls flat.

I dont think Clem Ford is the problem.

She seems to be playing Mac perfectly, as too how the character is written. The writing is the issue.

My dream addition to the writing staff would be Jane Espenson. Unfortunately Dollhouse was renewed by Fox so she's very likely unavailable.

She would be FANTASTIC.

Well, i hope she would be anyways. Id love to see it.

eta- http://boards.soapoperanetwork.com/index.p...st&p=637695

Edited June 22, 200916 yr by JackPeyton