I never minded Jack losing to Victor because Victor is so ruthless, I could buy him winning. But Jack losing to Nick? All the time now? Both Phyllis and Sharon totally prefer Nick to Jack? Really? Jack is a man and Nick is such a boy. Noah is more mature than Nick.

I'm totally with you on that except, Sharon, I can get with on the choosing Nick over Jack; but Phyllis? I've always thought Phyllis is so much smarter than both Nick and Sharon and at this point I very much more see her looking at both of them almost as bad as she does Amber who to me is an idiot in Phyllis' eyes. The only thing I used to help me along with believing this is the philosophy behind the saying "Love is blind"

I'm totally with you on that except, Sharon, I can get with on the choosing Nick over Jack; but Phyllis? I've always thought Phyllis is so much smarter than both Nick and Sharon and at this point I very much more see her looking at both of them almost as bad as she does Amber who to me is an idiot in Phyllis' eyes. The only thing I used to help me along with believing this is the philosophy behind the saying "Love is blind"

...and that Phyllis is probably having the best sex of her life, and who would want to lose that?

Okay, so I do have a few late reflections on Monday's episode....

1. In the midst of all her turmoil, I thiought it was exceptionally generous of Sharon to take a moment to grant Daniel absolution.

2. Kevin and all the letters.... Do you think they will start a "My Name is Earl" arc, where he tries to redeem himself, one letter writer at a time?

3. Kevin shirtless. They mostly hid him...but still, it was a nice change of pace.

4. Upthread, someone called Nick a lying sack of sh!t. And that he was, today. I think the baby must not be his. Someone else pointed out that Sharon slept with Billy the most (is that true?)...so let's have it be his kid.

5. Peter Bergman...just earned his next Emmy. Michelle Stafford did pretty well too. Did anyone else get the sense at the end...when she talked about dealing with her crisis...that she's almost done with Nick?

6. Noah. If only he'd get a story worthy of him. Kevin G. Schmidt is a terrific young actor, and should be under contract.

7. I loved how the party was laid out...each little set piece flowing from one to the next pretty seamlessly.

8. I was getting irritated that Murphy was giving the toast at KAY'S party. Just like he took Neil's "father of the bride" toast at the reception. But then I remembered he is a veteran (the only one on the show, besides Jack), and this was Memorial Day.

9. But, because it was Memorial Day, why was there a receptionist working at Restless Style?

10. Neil said he didn't regret leaving Newman. I get it...he was always second fiddle to the brats. But where is this anger at Newman coming from. I never really perceived Neil playing that note before.

...and that Phyllis is probably having the best sex of her life, and who would want to lose that?

You know...that is terrific...but it doesn't last. It just doesn't. The sex may be awesome, but at some point it stops being a new discovery every time.

Which means there has to be an emotional connection. And I feel that connection whenever Morrow and Stafford are in a scene together, but it is all coming from the actors. The writing really doesn't support it. I acknowledge that...we have to assume that the emotional connection is subtext, backstory...but it sure isn't well justified on screen narratively.

Plus, frankly, Nick is a selfish Newman boy. Could he really be that good in the sack?

CK doesn't try but I partly blame the producers & writers for this. Why is there so little follow up on Lily/Daniel? Why doesn't she still secretly fear/hate/lust Kevin? Why isn't there lingering tension with Colleen over Colleen sleeping with Daniel? Lily isn't a three-dimensional character who carries her past experiences with her.

Such a fundamental problem with soaps in general these days...but I think you nailed why Lily doesn't work. I have no clue who Lily Winters is, whether it's from the writing or from CK's performances. I remember when they tried to mix her up with Billy. One day she wanted to jump his bones, the next day she was ripping him a new one, and none of it had any real motivation. And then the whole dalliance with Billy was swept under the rug.

Such a fundamental problem with soaps in general these days...but I think you nailed why Lily doesn't work. I have no clue who Lily Winters is, whether it's from the writing or from CK's performances. I remember when they tried to mix her up with Billy. One day she wanted to jump his bones, the next day she was ripping him a new one, and none of it had any real motivation. And then the whole dalliance with Billy was swept under the rug.

Yeah, the dalliance with Billy was clearly about building the quad (Chloe-Cane-Lily-Billy)...but it was a plot point, not a character point.

And the fact that it has all be dropped and forgotten...Cane and Lily are now on their P3 arc...Billy and Chloe are on their Mac-Raul-Jack-Sharon arc...it's hard to believe that Chloe's baby drove story for months until recently.

The March transition from there to here was really, really abrupt. And follow through from the "quad" story is one of the casualties.

You know...that is terrific...but it doesn't last. It just doesn't. The sex may be awesome, but at some point it stops being a new discovery every time.

They started as a result of an affair, not a good foundation to start a relationship on. Their relationship was and still is very sexually driven, but that of course wears off after a time. There's only so much sex can do to save a marriage/relationship. I never got the deep kind of love in that relationship that I get from Nikki and Victor, for example, no matter how dysfunctional their relationship is.

Edited May 26, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

I think the quad story was built on the idea that a rivalry between Billy and Cane was going to be good drama. I don't believe the rivalry worked, I thought they both came across in a bad light and the motivations were so confusing for Billy and Chloe, I don't know if they clicked in the larger story with Lily and Cane. Billy and Chloe could have been interesting on their own, but now after Sharon, and Mackenzie, I think that relationship is also gone.

Billy and what he is supposed to be and who he is supposed to care about has confused me from the first day of his return and I think everyone he's involved with becomes a casualty.

Edited May 26, 200916 yr by CarlD2

You know...that is terrific...but it doesn't last. It just doesn't. The sex may be awesome, but at some point it stops being a new discovery every time.

Which means there has to be an emotional connection. And I feel that connection whenever Morrow and Stafford are in a scene together, but it is all coming from the actors. The writing really doesn't support it. I acknowledge that...we have to assume that the emotional connection is subtext, backstory...but it sure isn't well justified on screen narratively.

Plus, frankly, Nick is a selfish Newman boy. Could he really be that good in the sack?

What exactly do you mean by there has to be? Why, I mean what I see is a a very sexually driven couple. Friendship I buy they have that dynamic, sexual I buy they do have that dynamic but I don't see anything else. I don't really understand the statement that indicates some sort of mandated connection by some default....

What exactly do you mean by there has to be? Why, I mean what I see is a a very sexually driven couple. Friendship I buy they have that dynamic, sexual I buy they do have that dynamic but I don't see anything else. I don't really understand the statement that indicates some sort of mandated connection by some default....

It's just fanbase talk...

Follow-through is the main problem with Y&R. Character motivation is a total mess.

Why would Lily, rebounding over Cane after the "lie", hook up with BILLY and not return to Daniel? She's not Sharon. Even Sharon had to be drunk and depressed before she slept with her ex's brother.

Why does Chloe not care that Billy is no longer a Chancellor when she longed to marry a Chancellor?

Why are we supposed to forget about Mac's history with JT?

Such a fundamental problem with soaps in general these days...but I think you nailed why Lily doesn't work. I have no clue who Lily Winters is, whether it's from the writing or from CK's performances. I remember when they tried to mix her up with Billy. One day she wanted to jump his bones, the next day she was ripping him a new one, and none of it had any real motivation. And then the whole dalliance with Billy was swept under the rug.

The only characters that work on the show are the ones with decades of history and/or the ones played by actors who try to make them work inspite of the very disjointed writing. I think CK would try if she thought the producers knew what the hell they were doing with Lily. Judging by Nia Peeples comments, no one in the Winters story cares. They just show up and do they best they can even if they don't understand it or know how to play it.

Part of the problem is what we talked about before. Too many characters. You can't tell the full journey of Lily and Chloe and Amber and Jana and Colleen and Mac and Heather and Eden.

Sort of OT: but did you all see the Brenda Dickson EVICTION video?

http://brendadickson.blogspot.com/

5. Did anyone else get the sense at the end...when she talked about dealing with her crisis...that she's almost done with Nick?

I totally got that vibe. I love how MS seems to hit every beat in this story. This is where I felt like she reached the end of her rope, I didn't even feel that way after the scenes where Nick left.

10. Neil said he didn't regret leaving Newman. I get it...he was always second fiddle to the brats. But where is this anger at Newman coming from. I never really perceived Neil playing that note before.

Neil is stubborn yet passive aggressive. There are so much layers to peel for this character it is a shame. All story possibilities not done for Neil (that should be) is either out of fear or ignorance. They want to keep Neil "safe" IMO. He is very very very subtely written, almost underwritten very little characterization for a leading strong character.

Edited May 26, 200916 yr by classicmoment

What has been done to Billy is a shame. There was no reason to have him sleep with Sharon when they knew they were bringing Mac who wasn't needed in the first place. I will never understand these headwriters, particularly the female ones.

It's just fanbase talk...

Yep.

What exactly do you mean by there has to be? Why, I mean what I see is a a very sexually driven couple. Friendship I buy they have that dynamic, sexual I buy they do have that dynamic but I don't see anything else. I don't really understand the statement that indicates some sort of mandated connection by some default....

Yes...that is an appropriate question. I guess there DOESN'T have to be an emotional connection.

R.J. Sternberg says it better. He says that love has three dimensions:

From wikipedia:

1. Intimacy – Which encompasses feelings of closeness, connectedness, and bondedness.
2. Passion – Which encompasses drives that lead to romance, physical attraction, and sexual consummation.
3. Commitment – Which encompasses, in the short term, the decision to remain with another, and in the long term, the shared achievements and plans made with that other.

He then characterizes relationships based on which of these three dimensions couples have, and in what amount. Based on the table below, he'd say they have "romantic" but not "consummate" love.

Combinations of intimacy, passion, and commitment

	Intimacy	Passion	Commitment
Nonlove
Liking/friendship	x
Infatuated love		x
Empty love			x
Romantic love	x	x
Companionate love	x		x
Fatuous love		x	x
Consummate love	x	x	x

Edited May 26, 200916 yr by MarkH