The Politics Thread

[DRW50]

They don't just get coverage in their own echo chamber. They endlessly go to the media, which is more than happy to repeat these comments, with a minimum of tut-tutting from empty suits.

Besides, it is very dangerous for people who have so much power and such a public voice to say things like "go back to Kenya." We shouldn't just accept this because they're speaking to a rally.

[Wales2004]

These are the types of situations about which you can't do a whole lot unless you personally encounter them.

People can listen to an "expert" on MSNBC, CNN or some other station say that black people are not monolithic before he goes on to say that "we don't agree with Colin Powell but we respect him" or something along those lines and would they walk away believing that black people are not monolithic or more confused than they were before listening to that "expert?"

On a one-to-one basis, individuals can tell or show people that they are not that stereotype but despite the fact that you have people who know black people that don't fit in the box, they end up seeing them as merely "different" than other black people because the media image overrides everything else.

[DRW50]

I think the media can do more than they are. The problem is the media wants bigotry. They love it. They release the wild animals and then as they watch the carnage, they can shake their head, sigh Aaron Brown style, and act above it all.

[Wales2004]

I wholeheartedly agree. Those guys pushing their books need it too. That's pretty much why they have a long list of the problems but they never offer any solutions.

Michael Eric Dyson wrote a couple of books about Bill Cosby's 2004 "pound cake" speech to the NAACP. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say the books were dedicated to criticizing Bill Cosby and explaining why people are in their situations without offering any possible remedies.

People were so enraged that Bill Cosby aired "dirty laundry" in public as if news reports and statistics don't reveal any of what he said. So dump on Bill Cosby and pretend that his "senility" was causing him to tell lies. He at least expressed concern about young kids not learning and going astray.

Kids can't read and the excuses pile up but no solutions. What was Booker T. Washington's excuse for not knowing how to read? He was a slave. Oh and he could read yet I'm supposed to believe that some kid today cannot read because of America's slave legacy. A slave could read but someone who was never a slave is more hindered by the legacy of slavery than an actual slave was by being an actual slave.

I am soooooo tired....

[GoldenDogs]

Wow, miss a day... miss a lot.

Wales, you speak truth and I appreciate and respect you for it.

[marceline]

There have been plenty of stories of elderly people not having their ID and the cost involved in getting that ID. The bottom line is that there is no voter fraud so the voter ID laws are pointless bureaucracy designed to keep Democratic voters (minorities, the elderly, the poor and students) from the polls and there are plenty of stories of people in all those groups being disenfranchised. Of course it's easier to say "well that's wrong but if only black people were perfect then it wouldn't matter." I see this reasoning used on women all the time. "Yeah it's unpleasant for a political candidate to say some girls are easy to rape. But isn't it true? Not us of course but those other lesser women who make bad decisions. They make the rest of us look so bad."

[GoldenDogs]

If you say it enough times, it MUST be true.

[juppiter]

It IS true though. Why are these laws coming out in an election year after the Repugs were swept into power into various state houses in 2010? Why are states limiting early voting days? You never heard about widespread voter fraud and suddenly this is a huge issue in a number of states? Does not compute unless you reach the reasonable conclusion that it is being done to keep likely Democratic voters from the polls. They stole Florida in 2000 with the purge and aborted recount there and they are trying to steal even more states this time.

It's interesting how you will read novels and encylopedias into Barack Obama's motivations, Brian, but not for one second question alterior motives about the Voter ID Law trend.

Edited October 29, 2012 by juppiter

[Wales2004]

Let's be honest and admit that these laws were not created smack dab in the middle of the presidential election cycle because of any sudden concern over voter fraud.

Just because it sounds like a good reason doesn't make it true.

On the flip side, just because voter fraud is not a "legitimate" problem, doesn't mean that voter i.d. should not be enacted.

It should be enacted nation-wide next year or whenever--as long as it's not in the middle of the cycle as to keep registered voters from being able to vote or eligible voters from registering and voting.

I'm not going to make any analogies to or draw any correlations to lunacy about rape/rape victims and racial issues.

MSNBC depicts the voter suppression laws as racist towards black people. Students and the elderly are an afterthought and seldom mentioned as affected.

Minorities = black and Poor = black. That's the narrative told over and over again.

So if the picture MSNBC constantly paints is correct and voter suppression laws work primarily against black voters, then won't it conttribute to people seeing black Americans as perpetual victims?

Nobody's saying "if only black people were perfect," because that's a diversion..distraction That's pretty much what I described above regarding Bill Cosby. Instead of focusing on the education problem, for which no one seems to have any solution, let's all attack Bill Cosby. Years later the education problem persists. Racism is full of distractions/diversions....keep moving on to the next outrage. It keeps people from serious resolutions.

[Ann_SS]

Frankly, I completely reject your premise here. If all you and others see are victims that you are ignoring the weight of history and the strength and courage of the African American community and other groups have been marginalized over the years. Historically, voter suppression laws and tactics were aimed at African Americans AND women (white and black) so these groups refusing to be victims with their allies fought back against violence, rape, and cruelty until Jim Crow, the poll tax, reading test, etc. were defeated.

Now Republican's voter suppression laws and tactics are aimed at Hispanics and African Americans. Again, these groups are not sitting still and accepting the victim role or being targets of the racism of some powerful white Americans. By pointing out this racism with the support of their media allies, engaging in court battles, and speaking up and embarrassing Clearwater Channel and its allies to take down anonymous voter suppression billboards, these groups are proclaiming to our society and the world that they refuse to be victims and let their votes be stolen. If you do not see the power in this, maybe it is because you have never been powerless.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Ann_SS

[GoldenDogs]

Don't forget that Voter ID laws are not new ideas born out of this election cycle. Efforts to establish such laws the past many years have been stymied by Democrats, sometimes by left-leaning judicial activists. Look, I live in California... I know judicial activism... LOL!

Let's look at the flip-side of this thing. You all will read novels and encylopedias into the motivations of those interested in establishing Voter ID laws... but what of the motives of those who are adamant against the establishment of such laws? All reason goes out the window with conspiracy theories, etc. You have to wonder why it scares the left so much?

Obama, himself, was required to show a picture ID when he voted early. Shouldn't everyone?

[I Am A Swede]

Maybe I'm being naive, but doesn't everyone have an ID in the US? If not how do they identify themselves when getting prescription drugs, or withdrawing money from the bank etc?

Here you can't vote if you can't identify yourself. Before every election we get a voting card, and when you vote you have to bring that card, and a photo ID, otherwise you can't vote.

[GoldenDogs]

Ann, you live in a fantasy world and the hate you personally espouse is palpable.

Republicans constantly court votes from Hispanics and African Americans. Those groups are important to any candidate who wishes to get elected by any great majority number. So-called "minority" groups are only told they're victims by Liberals who wish to ensnare them in the trap of dependancy on government... and those that rise above and beyond the limitations put on them by said Libs prove that point.

People are defined not by skin color or ethnicity... I believe they are defined by their dreams and what they wish to achieve in life - the kind of person they are or wish to become. Everyone makes a choice as to the direction their life takes. This notion that the big white racist hand of Republican evil is smothering people of color is old and tired; laughable, really. Ann, you need to find another line of attack. The only group holding back people of color in this day and age is... surprise... people of color.

I must ask... where do you live where the bigotry is so strong that people of varied backgrounds and ethnicities are routinely hobbled? Where in America is it still the early 60's?

Okay... cue the standard "it's happening but much more subtle now" line... I know the argument so well that I can actually argue your side for you.

I know the standard Liberal lines for most arguments... I once played Devil's Advocate to my son when he was searching for clarity on some big issue recently. He was dumbfounded by my "stance" and was certain I had lurched left. I know the game and I've heard the arguments on so many of these hot-button Liberal issues... It's tiresome. And, Ann, your arguments amount to empty rants because you lack substance - it's just always a laundry list of leftist faves without offering anything more. I suppose we're all guilty of it here, particularly when we're just being lazy... but all I see from you is more of the same hatespeak and don't recall ever seeing anything more than that.

But I'm sure you're a pleasant enough person out in the real world, away from the forum. I wish I could meet everyone here at least once. Would be interesting.

[Wales2004]

I'm not at all ignoring history. I don't believe in using history as a "go to." I see far too many people who can't even cite any history accurately use it to try say what they've overcome, etc. Honestly, I have zero to do with any accomplishments anyone before me made so I'm not one of those people who will say, for instance, that because I'm a woman I've had it hard or look how far I've come or we've come. That credit goes to those who fought for it and died for it.

Hispanics can be black. Black is not an ethnic group, it's a race. I have no use for the term "African-American" because it muddies the waters and now I don't know whether you mean only black people, born in America with slave ancestry or everyone and that makes a difference to me because there are black voters who are not connected to America's legacy and don't necessarily believe they've been oppressed or are being oppressed.

None of this changes the picture that MSNBC paints in which they ignore everyone else to focus on the narrative that black voters are being unfairly burdened.

People can interpret those laws how they want and draw from history to make their cases but the reality is that the language in those laws can't possibly say "only applies to this group."

I've already made my point about the timing of it and I'm glad that advocates are assisting people.

Seriously, you're telling me that if I don't see things the way you do then I've never been powerless. I'm sorry that you're that close minded on this issue.

This would be the part where II might list a whole bunch of things about how hard I've had it. I don't need to go there because someone's always had it tougher and it's irrelevant anyway. People survive and keep moving or they get stuck and come up with reasons why.

So you're right. What can I say? I lead a charmed life.

[GoldenDogs]

I remember you posting this fact once before. Do you feel specific groups of people of been targeted in your country by being required to produce a photo ID when voting?

You are correct regarding the need to produce photo ID in the US when withdrawing money at a bank, receiving certain benefits, etc. The arguments against requiring a photo ID to vote in America become more flimsy when all the reason why you MUST have a photo ID are mentioned.

You must have a photo ID to receive healthcare in America - will that remain consistent with Obamacare? With my heath insurance, I must show photo ID every time I go to the doctor or visit a specialist, etc. If we are all to receive free Obamacare, won't we all then be required to have photo ID?

Here in California, those without a Driver Licence can get a California ID card. My son needs to get one... But he didn't have to show photo ID to vote because he already established his identity when he registered for selective service. One of the many ways, as a citizen actually qualified to vote in America, an individual can establish proof of elegibility to vote in every election.