Y&R: Week of October 06, 2008

[Sylph]

Also, have in mind that I defended Maria Bell from the beginning, but now... I'm starting to wonder if she really can pull this off.

[Toups]

Gee, nice attitude! So, Y&R is only good when you say it's good? If Mark says the show is good, why can't the show be good to him?

You seem to have a problem with people praising things you don't like. It's like you can't it.

[Sylph]

Toups, don't play the policeman. You missed the point: I didn't say it suck plain bad now, although I understand why you might think so. The phrasing is ambiguous.

Perhaps, perhaps not... I don't care about what it may seem. It might seem, but it's not that.

[MarkH]

I have no problem with the relativism of our judgments, and the idea that one man's pleasure is another man's poison.

I do think it is fair to say that B&B was never quite as deeply in my heart as Y&R...but it is also the case that B&B was once much dearer to me. The show has fallen!

I am long winded. It is a failing. I hate it about myself, too.

I do not consider my praise of Y&R excessive. I am not someone who will praise Y&R _just_ for being "classic". That said, by late 2007, I felt the show had so lost its way that I have--ever since--welcomed a return to "classicism". NOT for its own sake (after all...who cares if there is a lingering shot of flowers or instrumental music), but because it suggests a show that is regaining its (stylistic) identity, and this serves as a marker of behind-the-scenes-repair.

I admire that you are a pot-stirrer, Sylph, and that you provoke discussion with strong opinions. That is how conservative talk radio works too. You are effective.

[MTSRocks]

Yawn, let's discuss the show, and move on from all the fancy lingo and childish antics...

Jack was TOTALLY right about Phyllis today. I feel that MS knows that the character she was playing for the last couple of years was not Phyllis, and you can see it in her performances now. Lately, I've been seeing Phyllis of 2004.

I like Nikki, but Nikki/Phyllis never really entertained me. I MUCH prefer Nikki vs. Sharon, although I like both actresses, they just don't have that chemistry, or history that Sharon/Nikki share.

KSJ/Neil looks so weird without his beard.

That last scene in the elevator yesterday with Cane/Lily was well done. I loved it! But sadly, that, and the amazing production values were the only things that interested me.

[Sylph]

It's not that it's poison to me; I don't hate it. I just find a lot of important elements missing. For example, some super-glue that holds everything together, some mega-story or something. It's also that I don't like that whole team and I sincerely hope Maria will do something about it (but I doubt it). Too many different cooks in there. The show cannot have 2 very different head writers at the same time and have a successful, cohesive vision. If you add Bill Jr., Barbara Bloom and Sony's representatives, it's still messy.

You're like a poet from Romanticism. Feeling the Weltschmerz of soaps, doing anything you can to stick with it til the end and remain positive, singing the Hymnen an die Nacht of soaps as they once was. Those are some highly admirable aspirations which I share but, unfortunately, in a different way. You tend to suck out every little bit of positivity and thus sometimes by doing that destroying that same positivity. If this makes any sense (and it probably doesn't to 99% of the population of SON).

All the more stranger that is. After all, you embraced fully everything new Lynn Latham was trying to build. That's what I don't understand: do you want it to enter the 21st century or don't you? We've elaborated gazillion times how Lynn Latham failed in that regard miserably so we won't go there again. I just think this whole format, as much as I adore it, is becoming very, very dated and archaic in the present world.

I don't know how to take this... It's the second time you call me conservative talk radio.

Yawn to your post too.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

Can I just say that I really love Chole, she's exactly the type of character this show has needed for a long time. It doesn't matter if you like or dislike her, but you can't help but have a reaction to a character like that, instead of being indifferent on her. She provokes something, and keeps the pot stirred and I liked that. As they develop her more and add more layers to the character, I find myself more and more drawn to her. Her obsession with the Chancellors makes sense, since she seemingly blames Katherine and Jill for using her Esther and stopping Esther from having a real bond with her, no matter how true/untrue it is, it's just how she feels.

[MarkH]

I don't mind the absence of an umbrella. That is a stylistic issue. Y&R has always had pockets of characters, and this works well for them. There ARE ties (stronger than during the Bell days, actually)...but not overlapping stories. I agree with you, in principle, about the "too many cooks" issue, but in practice I do not currently find the show to be a disorganized, uneven mess. Thus, I suspect there is a strong central force. Who? Good question.

I really don't think I'm that positive .

The harmony between past and future is precisely that...a balance. I FULLY embraced Latham...until it became clear that her disorganization and lack of respect for history and character were interfering with her modernization. Moreover, I realized many viewers resisted modernization (Marceline's nostalgia axiom), and so this very "improvement" could kill the show.

I have since supported the return to "classicism", not for its' own sake, but to restrengthen the foundation (both in terms of storytelling, and in terms of winning back lapsed viewers). Once this is shored up (to the extent that it can be), I feel any future steps back to modernization must be done slowly, incrementally, gradually...so as not to put off the "base". The widespread fan revulsion for the Victor-Sabrina union, as an example, shows that you simply cannot rush things on this show. Viewers ACTIVELY TUNED OUT due to Sabrina, and the show reached all-time-low ratings.

Thus, things must be done very slowly.

I am a flaming liberal, but I have great respect for conservative talk radio. They succeed in being highly profitable, and engaging many viewers. They do so by having hosts with FIRM talking points and principles from which they seldom deviate. These hosts also consistently speak in brief declarative statements (this is "good", this is "bad"). The level of rhetoric is polarizing, but it also demands a pro-con response.

Thus, although I often disagree with your opinions, I respect that you put them out there. This, then, engenders discussion...which is the life force of a board like this. I hope this explains.

[YRBB]

I feel weird because I can actually see where both Sylph and MarkH are coming from and I understand (and maybe even share) both their views on the current state of the show. However, I am inclined to agree with the fact that the show is nothing more than just mediocre right now. It is true that, compared to all the other daytime soaps on air right now, as well as former stints by LML and possibly Jack Smith, the show is entertaining, focuses on character, is a lot more sensible in terms of plot and pacing. But great? No, not IMO. Right now, the show is merely less generic than all the other soaps are. The characters on Y&R used to have their own individual voices, there was a clear identity and style to it and, even though current times will or cannot accept the theatrical, melodramatic dialogue and the uber-slow pace, there should be an effort to make the show more modern, without loosing itself. That's the big problem: Y&R is supposedly moving into the new century, so it dropped every characterization, every thing that made it tick. (Of course, that can be solely attributed to The Hack Bitch Whore).

For a while, everyone talked like everyone else, everyone did anything, there was bad rock music, and all that. Now, it's better. Yes, there has been a better focus on characters, and character moments, (i.e. no character assassinations), but for all its reassurances about modernization, the show has no identity. The dialogue could have been easily been updated without loosing it's magnificence. Say what you want about Bell and Alden dialogue, but each character had his or her own style/tone/quirks and it was all brilliantly written. Now, it has all been replaced by what is considered to be what "modern" viewers want: Simple, easy to follow dialogue, with not many (if any) referals to the past, no ambiguity, no context, no saying-one-thing-and-meaning-another. All of which were richly abundant in previous years. There have been occasional episodes that I have really enjoyed, and that happened due to minimal effort from the show-makers: A more classic feel to it (I'm sorry, but there is a clear distinction between how the show "felt" in the Bell years and how it feels now), nice music, tight shots, better acting. But, throughout it all, it still remains bland.

Some of the stories have interest, such as the possible upcoming Jabot takeover. Is it competently done? Maybe. Is it done greatly? Not really. If you look back at how things were done even 10-12 years ago, the differences are huge. Forget the music, the dialogue, the stylistic stuff. When it comes down to just the storytelling, stories that not only included a wide range of characters, but also pushed them to their boundaries, challenged their beliefs, made them do things that they didn't want to do.... in other words, real drama. There was a clear vision (Bell's) and a devotion to it. There was extremely careful and imaginitive writing and planning. It was about character, but the plots were simultaneously rich, plentiful and canvas-changing. Right now, we have a couple of stories that show mild interest, saved by instrumental music that brings back memories. I have fallen for that before, and probably will again, but I have also come to realize that it's not enough. No amount of classic Y&R music can make me like the fact that Victor, Nikki, Victoria, Nick, Phyllis, Sharon, et al have still not found their center. Y&R right now is the best that daytime has to offer at the moment, but it's a long way until we get drama back (if we ever will).

[MTSRocks]

Good, move on then.

----->

[lmfan]

Scenes between Peter Bergman and Michelle Stafford just crackle while so many scenes between Phyllis and Nick just feel hollow. Jack hit the target with Phyllis and she knew it. Phyllis has always been her own worst enemy and the same really can be said for Jack. I have felt that Phyllis was keeping her true self from Nick but it is seeping out. Yet Jack knows and understands the true Phyllis. I remember the night before Phyllis' wedding, Phyllis confided in Lauren that she was afraid to be truly honest with Nick while she was never afraid to tell Jack how she really felt. Deep down Phyllis is not sure Nick would accept the real Phyllis, but you can only play a part for so long. It is about time we are starting to see the real Phyllis. I liked how Jack admitted that it took a very long time for him to get over Phyllis but he did. I don't know if I completely believe that, but it was nice to see Phyllis' reaction as I always felt she kept Jack around for the fall back position.

I agree about Sharon and Nikki. I don't know if it is the actresses or because even though they were often at each other throats, Nikki and Sharon considered each other family while Phyllis still does not feel integrated into the Newman family. Phyllis still is an outsider even if she is the mother of a Newman grandchild.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

I LOVED the Jack and Phyllis scenes too, Jack really stuck it to her, and Phyllis had no meaningful rebuttal, because she knows what he said is true. It's about time they gave Phyllis her tits back.

Only two people in Genoa City know who the real Phyllis is - Jack and Michael. Though, they haven't been playing the Phyllis and Michael friendship at all lately.

[Dan]

Am I the only one that actually likes Adam? I'm so tired of everyone treating him as some punching doll. Where was Nick and Victoria's supposed "love" for Victor in the months before their sudden epiphany after Sabrina's death? While they had nothing to do with Victor, Adam was the only one actually trying to have a relationship with him. Now Vic and Nick condemn Adam's supposed lack of caring for Victor. God those two really piss me off. Go get them Adam! Team up with Jack and show those two morons what for!

[MTSRocks]

^^^You're definitely not in the minority here. I love Adam! I can't wait to see the dynamic between Billy/Adam when they eventually meet up. It could be Jack vs. Victor part deux!

[detroitpiston]

Oh God, please, Rauch, MAB, no more Brad and Sharon scenes. They suck, always have, and always will. And no matter who's writing them, they will always seem like a forced and contrived pairing to me.