On 8/25/2022 at 4:53 PM, Vee said:

Episode 13 (Witness):

Per this episode and some discussion in the next one (where Abby makes it clear Cathy can do anything she has to to keep Gary occupied short of sleeping with him) I assume that is the reason Abby hired Cathy, to keep him off her back in the boardroom. Which means she did so before the whirlwind wedding. How long has she been planning this?

I've just reached this episode. My theory is that Abby met Cathy when she was checking out the resort where she and Gary would have their honeymoon. Maybe it was even the same day Abby bought her wedding dress. Maybe Abby's resort and shopping visit was on a break from checking out Lotus Point's future neighborhood.

Also, Abby has at least 12 phone lines! Talk about your blasts from the past.

Joan van Ark's chemistry with Michele Lee is indeed legendary, but I'm really loving Joan opposite Kevin Dobson.

Some further season five thoughts as I venture to the halfway point of the season.

Laura and her place on the canvas has changed, and it makes me sad. In no time at all, she's become a sideline character whose only function is as an advisor to Abby and Gary. We've barely seen her in the cul-de-sac this season much less actually been inside her house. She should have been a lot more shaken up over Cathy's arrival than she was, given how close she was with Ciji, but her reaction was summed up in maybe a scene or two before she was back to playing games with Abby. I feel like the writing was on the wall for her in a scene where Abby asked what makes her happy, and Laura's only response was a cold, emotionless, "Money."

This has to be the season where Abby is almost at the point of no return because I get no enjoyment out of watching her right now. There's nothing fun about who she is or what she does. She's making all these moves behind Gary's back and also sleeping with Greg, but she's also trying to hold Gary to a standard of faithfulness that she herself isn't honoring. I mean, obviously, she's a conniving schemer, but where's her lighter side? Alexis, Angela, and JR all had those light moments that endured them to the audience, but Abby has none. And the thing about her and Gary that gets me is that in the famous Abby/Val confrontation in "China Dolls," Abby throws it in Val's face that Val treats Gary like a child, but here we are, Abby is treating Gary like a child, and she's bored with him.

The ONE positive thing I can say about that idiotic shrew Diana is that her presence does give Abby the soft edge she needs from time to time and is a reminder of who Abby was before the show glamified. Other than, I can honestly say that Diana Fairgate might be the dumbest character in the big four primetime soap canon. I go back and forth on if she could have ever been saved, but I really do think that they made a mistake by keeping her on Team Chip going into season five. Everything up to their capture in Oklahoma could have made sense, but the fact that she continued to do his dirty work along with giving every single person on earth (besides Abby) the nastiest attitude every time she opened her mouth just makes her absolutely insufferable.

I can see why Michele Lee wasn't crazy about the pill storyline. To me, it would have made more sense for Karen to slowly descend into depression until she reached her breaking point. In a matter of two short years, her entire life has changed. She was a typical suburban mom dealing with typical suburban issues, but now her husband has been killed, her daughter has chosen an abusive murderer over her, her new husband is willingly getting involved in criminal elements, her close-knit neighborhood has been broken up, etc. She really doesn't know who she is anymore, and it wouldn't be surprising at all if she just snapped and needed time away at some point.

Idk what the general consensus is on Ben and Val, but I love them together, and I love them both as individual characters right now. Val has grown so much as a person since leaving Gary, and I guess I didn't expect her journey to be so good when all I've ever heard is that she is "poor Val." I absolutely love that despite the very evident evolution of the show in season five, she still has a pretty natural place at the center of most of it, and her relationships with various characters still feel so real.

Chip's death. I've never been crazy about impalement scenes in movies/TV because come on...is it really possible for that pitchfork to drive clean through his body like that? It's not like he fell from a rooftop onto it. He literally stumbled backwards and tripped. At most, he should have some puncture wounds. But all the way through the bone, muscle, and organs? That is KNOT very likely!

And one nitpick. I'm a person who needs for things to match. The "new" mix of the opening theme while the closing credits run under the "old" mix of the theme is driving me nuts, especially bc if you go back and listen, they went through the trouble of making a new arrangement of the "old" theme for the closing.

1 hour ago, All My Shadows said:

Some further season five thoughts as I venture to the halfway point of the season.

Laura and her place on the canvas has changed, and it makes me sad. In no time at all, she's become a sideline character whose only function is as an advisor to Abby and Gary. We've barely seen her in the cul-de-sac this season much less actually been inside her house. She should have been a lot more shaken up over Cathy's arrival than she was, given how close she was with Ciji, but her reaction was summed up in maybe a scene or two before she was back to playing games with Abby. I feel like the writing was on the wall for her in a scene where Abby asked what makes her happy, and Laura's only response was a cold, emotionless, "Money."

This has to be the season where Abby is almost at the point of no return because I get no enjoyment out of watching her right now. There's nothing fun about who she is or what she does. She's making all these moves behind Gary's back and also sleeping with Greg, but she's also trying to hold Gary to a standard of faithfulness that she herself isn't honoring. I mean, obviously, she's a conniving schemer, but where's her lighter side? Alexis, Angela, and JR all had those light moments that endured them to the audience, but Abby has none. And the thing about her and Gary that gets me is that in the famous Abby/Val confrontation in "China Dolls," Abby throws it in Val's face that Val treats Gary like a child, but here we are, Abby is treating Gary like a child, and she's bored with him.

The ONE positive thing I can say about that idiotic shrew Diana is that her presence does give Abby the soft edge she needs from time to time and is a reminder of who Abby was before the show glamified. Other than, I can honestly say that Diana Fairgate might be the dumbest character in the big four primetime soap canon. I go back and forth on if she could have ever been saved, but I really do think that they made a mistake by keeping her on Team Chip going into season five. Everything up to their capture in Oklahoma could have made sense, but the fact that she continued to do his dirty work along with giving every single person on earth (besides Abby) the nastiest attitude every time she opened her mouth just makes her absolutely insufferable.

I can see why Michele Lee wasn't crazy about the pill storyline. To me, it would have made more sense for Karen to slowly descend into depression until she reached her breaking point. In a matter of two short years, her entire life has changed. She was a typical suburban mom dealing with typical suburban issues, but now her husband has been killed, her daughter has chosen an abusive murderer over her, her new husband is willingly getting involved in criminal elements, her close-knit neighborhood has been broken up, etc. She really doesn't know who she is anymore, and it wouldn't be surprising at all if she just snapped and needed time away at some point.

Idk what the general consensus is on Ben and Val, but I love them together, and I love them both as individual characters right now. Val has grown so much as a person since leaving Gary, and I guess I didn't expect her journey to be so good when all I've ever heard is that she is "poor Val." I absolutely love that despite the very evident evolution of the show in season five, she still has a pretty natural place at the center of most of it, and her relationships with various characters still feel so real.

Chip's death. I've never been crazy about impalement scenes in movies/TV because come on...is it really possible for that pitchfork to drive clean through his body like that? It's not like he fell from a rooftop onto it. He literally stumbled backwards and tripped. At most, he should have some puncture wounds. But all the way through the bone, muscle, and organs? That is KNOT very likely!

And one nitpick. I'm a person who needs for things to match. The "new" mix of the opening theme while the closing credits run under the "old" mix of the theme is driving me nuts, especially bc if you go back and listen, they went through the trouble of making a new arrangement of the "old" theme for the closing.

This was a nicely done write-up. You made some great points here, and I agree with almost all of them.  

As for Laura, I couldn't agree more about her place on the show, in her neighborhood, and in her friend group. I had some hopes for the character, and they used her properly in the season premiere. But you are correct, she instantly becomes a secondary character compared to her peers. I thought the timing was off; she deserved to be leading a story and with a clear POV. I get that she was the loner/outsider of her group, but there are ways of playing that up other than me making it up in my head lol. She needed some scenes at home struggling with her children, changing a light bulb, taking out the trash, and saying she can't go to an event because she has no babysitter. Laura did at times seem cold because they only gave her cynical one-liners. I wish they had done better by her.

 

10 hours ago, All My Shadows said:

This has to be the season where Abby is almost at the point of no return because I get no enjoyment out of watching her right now. There's nothing fun about who she is or what she does. She's making all these moves behind Gary's back and also sleeping with Greg, but she's also trying to hold Gary to a standard of faithfulness that she herself isn't honoring. I mean, obviously, she's a conniving schemer, but where's her lighter side? Alexis, Angela, and JR all had those light moments that endured them to the audience, but Abby has none. And the thing about her and Gary that gets me is that in the famous Abby/Val confrontation in "China Dolls," Abby throws it in Val's face that Val treats Gary like a child, but here we are, Abby is treating Gary like a child, and she's bored with him.

One of my main issues with Dallas is JR not enduring - I just find him unpleasant and smug to watch and suffocating to the canvas. I don't feel that with Abby at this time. She doesn't get the lighter moments as much around this point but I think it makes sense for where she is in her life. 

We do get those moments later on, but the downside is they are just that - moments, and by her last few seasons, increasingly self-aware (as Knots, like many older shows, became much too self-aware), just salvaged by Donna's performances.

Edited June 29Jun 29 by DRW50

The mentions that Wolfbridge's sleazy practices resulting in a building collapse makes me wonder if that was being considered for the Season 5 cliffhanger. In the end, the show made the right decision, but can't you just imagine Gary, Val, Abby, Mack, Karen, Mark St. Claire, and Grace Zabriskie buried in and around the remains of the Belmar Hotel?

6 hours ago, DRW50 said:

One of my main issues with Dallas is JR not enduring - I just find him unpleasant and smug to watch and suffocating to the canvas. I don't feel that with Abby at this time. She doesn't get the lighter moments as much around this point but I think it makes sense for where she is in her life. 

We do get those moments later on, but the downside is they are just that - moments, and by her last few seasons, increasingly self-aware (as Knots, like many older shows, became much too self-aware), just salvaged by Donna's performances.

Totally agree with this. I think Donna Mills was able to infuse Abby with humanity whereas Hagman was too busy leaning into the macho b.s. of the eighties. Hagman's JR always had to win and that does not make for compelling triumph. It also doesn't help that we see to many mean like JR Ewing these days and it's not fun to watch them because we know the real-life damage they inflict on others.

If I had a choice of a female co worker/manager.. I'd pick Laura.  She seemed confident, competent, and knew how to separate personal from professional.. and was upfront if she wasn't happy with the quality of your work.   Karen would be a nightmare to work with and for... and leans too much into her emotions instead of being pragmatic.   Abby would be too much for herself so you couldn't trust her to actually be honest with you and would probably throw you under the bus in order to get herself out of trouble.  Val seemed better being self employed as an author (though I did love that brief stint in season 8 trying to write a screenplay.. and her work space at home was a mess... relatable).

43 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

If I had a choice of a female co worker/manager.. I'd pick Laura.  She seemed confident, competent, and knew how to separate personal from professional.. and was upfront if she wasn't happy with the quality of your work.   Karen would be a nightmare to work with and for... and leans too much into her emotions instead of being pragmatic.   Abby would be too much for herself so you couldn't trust her to actually be honest with you and would probably throw you under the bus in order to get herself out of trouble.  Val seemed better being self employed as an author (though I did love that brief stint in season 8 trying to write a screenplay.. and her work space at home was a mess... relatable).

Karen wouldn't just know your birthday, she'd know your kids' birthdays. I rest my case. Team Laura.

9 hours ago, DRW50 said:

One of my main issues with Dallas is JR not enduring - I just find him unpleasant and smug to watch and suffocating to the canvas. I don't feel that with Abby at this time. She doesn't get the lighter moments as much around this point but I think it makes sense for where she is in her life. 

 

Totally agree. I think this why nowadays I definitely prefer both Knots and FC over Dallas and Dynasty…characters like Abby, Greg, Richard, and Angela were a lot more 3-D and dynamic than what was on either Dallas and Dynasty. 

22 hours ago, DRW50 said:

One of my main issues with Dallas is JR not enduring - I just find him unpleasant and smug to watch and suffocating to the canvas. I don't feel that with Abby at this time. She doesn't get the lighter moments as much around this point but I think it makes sense for where she is in her life. 

We do get those moments later on, but the downside is they are just that - moments, and by her last few seasons, increasingly self-aware (as Knots, like many older shows, became much too self-aware), just salvaged by Donna's performances.

I'm referring more to pre-shooting JR. Last time I popped in, I expressed much of the same thoughts as everyone else about JR in the ensuing seasons, and that's a big reason why I've stalled on Dallas at the end of season six while plowing through both KL and FC.

My feelings about Abby remain the same, though, and after watching more over the weekend, I think one factor that plays a role in it is that she's running schemes surrounded by people who do not run schemes. Other than Greg, no one else is playing those types of games with her, so it just feels like she's an opportunist taking advantage of easy targets. Angela started off similarly, but by season two, she had to worry about Richard and Melissa, plus Lance's loyalties were no longer set in stone and Chase had also become a contender.

Idk, it just feels like the others had some level of cat-and-mouse going on. Even JR at his smuggest had adversaries to fight against (even if the rule was that he always had to win, the fight was still there). Right now, in season five of Knots, Abby doesn't have that, and all her secret deals and bedroom bargaining are reflecting poorly on her as a character because she's doing all of this for what reason other than she loves money and greedily wants more and more of it?

*** Realizing now that I used "enduring" when I meant "endearing" 

Edited June 30Jun 30 by All My Shadows

2 hours ago, All My Shadows said:

My feelings about Abby remain the same, though, and after watching more over the weekend, I think one factor that plays a role in it is that she's running schemes surrounded by people who do not run schemes. Other than Greg, no one else is playing those types of games with her, so it just feels like she's an opportunist taking advantage of easy targets. Angela started off similarly, but by season two, she had to worry about Richard and Melissa, plus Lance's loyalties were no longer set in stone and Chase had also become a contender.

Idk, it just feels like the others had some level of cat-and-mouse going on. Even JR at his smuggest had adversaries to fight against (even if the rule was that he always had to win, the fight was still there). Right now, in season five of Knots, Abby doesn't have that, and all her secret deals and bedroom bargaining are reflecting poorly on her as a character because she's doing all of this for what reason other than she loves money and greedily wants more and more of it?

I think the story with Abby is that her schemes are ultimately meaningless for her well-being. She's always going to want more and never be happy. There's never really a reset button with her the way they did with JR and Alexis, as her decisions have terrible long term-consequences for her and her kids. 

Another issue is that at this time they were likely using her to set up plots for other characters, leading to writing choices that Donna would push back on within the next season.

What shocked me about Season 6 of Knots (and part of what makes it probably my favorite season, so far) is that they did a profound 180 on Gary and Abby, and the direction those characters were going in in Seasons 4 and 5. The show and its very strong writing staff clearly realized they couldn't break them up so soon. So instead Gary sees Abby with much clearer eyes after the Wolfbridge affair ends, and accepts her and their relationship for who she is and what they do for each other. It's the most functional, mature and equal their marriage gets, and it was a huge and refreshing surprise to me. Of course it also functions as dramatic setup for the big secret of the twins, but that works too. It was never going to last, but for what it was it was good.

Edited June 30Jun 30 by Vee

Season 5 Knots Landing got glamorous and it also got corporate with Lotus Point and ventured into James Bond/action thriller territory with Wolfbridge. Lotus Point and Wolfbridge worked because they encompassed the entire canvas and still gave us high emotional stakes character driven storytelling.