Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[John]

Was Celeste Holm Fired or did she quit? Pat Barry was such a miscast

Edited January 17, 2022 by John

[Kane]

I think she was let go. I think Barry was fine given how the character was used during her tenure; the problem is that Isabelle was written completely out of character because the show tried to turn her into Cabot.

Hindsight is 20/20 of course, and I doubt the show knew when they let go of Wesley Addy that James Horan would be gone 6 months later, but I think the show would have been better served by having Clay go to prison for the cover up about the plane crash/the frame up of Trucker rather than have Cabot take the fall on his deathbed (or "deathbed," as it turned out). Have Curtis leave town afterwards, since the show never knew what to do with Albers' Curtis anyway, and then have Cabot bring him back to town in 1992 for the purpose of keeping Dinah Lee "occupied" as Trisha and Trucker deal with the fallout from his affair. He then falls in love with her in earnest, but then she finds out about the original set up and breaks up with him. Then bring Clay back, have him and Dinah Lee play out the "falling for each other without knowing each other's real identity" plot, and then launch the Curtis/Dinah Lee/Clay triangle.

 

Thanks.

The naming of his characters is very weird to me. He comes on in February '93 as Fred Graham, the FBI agent investigating Ava and Dinah Lee for murder. Months later he turns up playing a cop named Charlie Martin and then about a month after that he's renamed Pat Graham, the name change made necessary by Geoffrey Ewing's debut as Charles Harrison in between those two appearances. I'm curious about the thought process that went into having him play a whole new character, presumably unrelated to the first, but with the same last name.

[dc11786]

I did like the initial transformation of Isabelle when Celeste Holms took over the role. The shift was deliberate. Holmes and Mary Ryan Munisteri definitely crafted a more cunning Isabelle who was interested in protecting her family and their legacy now that Cabot wasn't there to do it himself. I found the transition to Addie Walsh particularly jarring when Addie Walsh takes over. The final appearance of Wesley Addy featured a complete about face and had Cabot accusing Isabelle of keeping a secret, something that had not been alluded to at all in any of the other ghostly visits. With that said, even Munisteri was building a little mystery about Isabelle and her hatred of "the Bog," Isabelle's nickname for the Tides. I think if they kept Isabelle as a sort of take charge force of nature who wasn't going to allow anyone or anything hurt her family, I would have been fine with it. By the point, Isabelle is using Gwyn to convince Clay and the whole Tim Sullivan story develops, I don't care anymore. 

I'm not a huge fan of Pat Barry as Isabelle, but on subsequent rewatches I don't think she is as bad as I once thought. She plays what is written like @Kanesays. 

Regarding Cabot's death, I believe Jacqueline Babbin purposely deconstructed the Aldens because she wanted a more diverse canvas. Upon arrival, Babbin stated she felt that the show had almost no sense of self and that it was still attempting to imitate "Dynasty." I think Cabot's death was suppose to be an attempt to remove that element. Babbin implied that she and Millee Taggart/Tom King were not always on the same page. King and Taggart were under the impression taht Babbin was planning to replace them and Babbin never seemed incredibly happy with the writing. From what I've seen of 1991, I really enjoy much more so than 1992 or the little of 1990 that has found its way online. 

Regarding Clay, I've wondered what story was pitched by Walsh in her initial 1992 story bible involving Trisha, Clay, Dinahlee, and Trucker. I suspect whatever was suggested did not account for Beck's maternity leave. Jessica Collins was great, but she constantly got terrible stories. I think the show should have played out Curtis / Clay / Dinahlee longer. @Kane, what I like about your timeline is it would have allowed for the show to play Ava as a spoiler in the Curtis / Dinahlee story. I would have loved to have seen the eye rolls from Trisha and Stacey when realizing that Curtis was involved with both of those women. 

In terms of Graham, I assume someone in casting liked the actor and kept bringing him back for the cop role until they finally deciding on making Graham a recurring character. I thought Charles Harrison felt very last minute. Even his introduction seemed like they decided to just hire Geoffrey Ewing last minute and make him Angie's new love interest. 

 

[Khan]

I can't say that I blame her.  For the most part, I found the writing on LOVING to be serviceable and nothing more.  I never sparked to anything that happened on that show -- although, God knows, I tried, lol!

[Kane]

Agreed. If either Patrick Johnson or Michael Lord had worked out, I imagine the story would have been extended - circa the end of Lord's tenure the story is pulling so hard in the direction of a Clay/Dinah Lee affair that them just going their separate ways after Curtis leaves town doesn't make much sense in terms of where the characters are at emotionally at that point. 

I've been wondering lately whether the Deborah/Clay/Steffi/Cooper story borrows from the original outline for Clay/Dinah Lee/Curtis, perhaps with Tess slotting into the role Deborah plays in the later story, Curtis playing the Clay role as the person with the secret he's desperate to keep, and Clay/Dinah Lee playing the Cooper/Steffi part as they team up to try to figure out what Tess has on Curtis only to end up getting closer to each other in the process.

[victoria foxton]

.

Edited February 11, 2022 by victoria foxton

[victoria foxton]

.

Edited February 11, 2022 by victoria foxton

[Khan]

Not that I think Mary-Ellis Bunim was this visionary producer, but I'd love to know why ABCD hired her to EP LOVING, and why her tenure was so damn brief.  I feel like she and the networks must have butted heads the minute she stepped onto the premises.  Either that, or the cast and/or crew hated her on sight.

[Vee]

From Susan Walters' (Lorna) new interview re: her return to Y&R:

 

[SFK]

Michael Lindsay-Hogg is actually Geraldine Fitzgerald’s son, but this certainly isn’t the first time these two Geraldines have been confused for one another (including in soap opera publications).

[Khan]

Yeah, most of my memories of SW come from her work on LOVING.  Well, that, and "Elvis & Me."

[BetterForgotten]

So they weren't even trying to hide biting off Thelma & Louise? 

Please register in order to view this content

 

[Kane]

It became a running gag after the storyline that they would refer to themselves as Thelma and Louise, but disagree about which of them was which.

[victoria foxton]

Please register in order to view this content

July 29, 1994

[Paul Raven]

June 1993

Actor enthusiastic about 'Loving' role By Nancy M. Reichardt United Feature Syndicate

NEW YORK In what is perhaps the latest bid to help raise its ratings, Loving has hired hunky Philip Brown to play rugged Buck Houston. After Brown left his role of handsome Steve Kendall on Search for Tomorrow in 1983, he relocated to California and landed roles in the series The Colbys, Knots Landing and Sisters. Although Brown swore that he would never do another daytime soap again, he couldn't say no to Loving. "I came back to daytime because I'm facing my fears in life," says the California-born actor. "To me, daytime is the toughest arena to be in because you're doing a show a day and learning all those lines. I believe this job is a God-given gift and that it happened for a reason. It didn't happen for me to say 'no' to it."

Although Brown considers his new job a gift, the actor had to make sacrifices. "I had a wonderful life in California that I had to give up to come back to New York to do Loving," he says. "I just bought a house a year ago and I have two dogs, Cassie and Zelda, that are my best friends. After I was told I had the role, I had a major anxiety attack that lasted all night. I realized I had signed a three-year contract with Loving and that I'm not going to see my house or my dogs or my family. It was not easy to give all that up." Brown was so filled with angst that he wanted to back out of the role on Loving and head home to California. But, as fate would have it, he bumped into the woman who cast him on Loving and she managed to change his mind again.

Brown is happy about his decision. "I'm quite pleased to be with Loving, because they have been very good to me," says Brown. "What intrigued me about the role of Buck is that he's a country-western, outdoorsy kind of character. I've never really had a chance to play that, and Buck is more of who I am. I feel very positive about being on Loving, and I believe we can take this half-hour show and turn it around and put it right into the top. People are going to start talking about this soap that you just have to watch." The show's low ratings don't worry Brown. "I don't believe that Loving has an ax hanging over it," he says. "As an actor, you can't worry about things like that. You just go in and do your best and whatever happens is going to happen. You ' can't control it."

Since the character of Buck is somewhat mysterious, Brown has no idea what Buck's future holds. "I don't know what direction I want to take Buck in yet all I know is that I want him to be honest," says the actor. "I want him to say what he feels, stick by it and take some chances. Since I was brought up in a family where we weren't taught to express how we feel, I think playing Buck will be therapeutic for me, a kind of catharsis. I think it will be a freeing experience for me. I'd like to see Buck always have an edge, but I'd like to see him progress into a nice guy and see him struggle with it. It would be interesting for the audience to see him striving to be a better person."