Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[amybrickwallace]

It's been awhile since Chris Marcantel put together a virtual reunion. Has he done any of them in 2021?

[slick jones]

Not yet, but he told me there were more coming around his birthday/ the Carolyn Anne Clarke and Kristen Vigard interview in the Locher Room on my Soap page on FB.

 

[amybrickwallace]

Awesome. I can't wait to see more!!

[dc11786]

This is a quote from Todd McDurmott explaining his departure from "Loving." Joe Hardy was EP at the time and Millee Taggart and Tom King were headwriting. 

 

Honestly, I think McDurmott made the right choice. That proposed storyline sounds pretty terrible. Also, King and Taggart definitely had a history of taking third wheel characters to the extreme (Dan Hollister and Jeff Hartman spring to mind). To be quite honest, I don't think King and Taggart's work was very good until Jacqueline Babbin came in and Babbin inferred that she had to lean heavy into the writers to adjust the writing. Taggart's 1993 run is much stronger and set up Nixon very well for her return even though she used very little of the foundations. 

[DRW50]

Did they also make Rick a headcase or was that always the plan? 

I remember how overwrought Taggart's GL run was. 

[dc11786]

I do believe they made Rick a bit crazy. Originally, it appeared that Rick was brought on to replace Curtis on the canvas as the Alden troublemaker, but in a different way. By that point in the story, Curtis was involved with Lotty and they were already making him more of a traditional romantic lead. Rick seemed like he could be trouble. Rick was involved in the Lily story, which would have made more sense with Curtis in the role given Curtis' history with everyone. 

I wasn't one who was impressed with Taggart's 2002-2003 stint the way others were. To be fair, she was still contending with Paul Raunch for most of it. I thought the Marah / Tony rape me scene was very off putting as was Cassie stripping for Danny. The end worked much better for me with the stalker storyline and the mystery about Gus. I have come to appreciate her work a lot more in recent years when it comes to "Loving," but also still hold to the belief that significant periods of her run with the show were mediocre at best. 

The 1991 material from Taggart (and Tom King) can be a bit heavy. The birth and death of Trisha and Trucker's son is pretty rough. Killing both Jim and Jimmy in a plane crash was a bit much. I thought the Abril baby story was a nice unifying thread that united many parts of the canvas.  I also liked the love triangle with Carly / Ava / Paul even if it wasn't anything terribly original. 

 

[Vee]

Count me in as someone who doesn't think Trucker/Trisha are all that, but I've only watched a handful of their prime era. I think Tucker and Dinahlee are hot as hell, and I like what I've seen of the long Trucker/Stacey tease. That's a pairing that would've happened had the show gone on a bit longer, if only due to creative inertia - in the late 90s and 2000s, most soaps seemed to get around to couples that never quite made it.

I also think Clay and Dinahlee really had chemistry, both with Malloy and Parlato (though admittedly the story with Malloy seems very, very silly). I liked that they kept that tortured chemistry going when Parlato assumed the role.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Vee

[DRW50]

I wonder at times if they brought in Buck to play a Trucker-type story with Stacey once they focused more on Trucker and Dinah Lee. 

I think Trucker and Dinah Lee have a lot of chemistry, but trashing Curtis casts a pall for me. 

Apparently there was some speculation the show might pair Angie and Trucker when she first arrived in Corinth. I doubt they would have, but it could have worked. 

I guess Trucker was leaving revamp or no revamp as Robert Tyler wanted out, but I do wonder what might have been. Him leaving town with the wan Dinah Lee recast is a whimper of an exit. 

I don't feel like I've seen enough of the building blocks of Trucker and Trisha to have a strong opinion on them. The early days, like his sleeping with Gwyneth, don't really match up to what I later see with them. 

The more I watch of Loving the more I realize I don't really care a great deal about any of the couples, maybe aside from Louis and Kate or Casey and Ally. Even with Alex and Ava, I sometimes feel she was a bit stifled. 

(actually I realize when I watch more of the show that I don't actually love a lot of Ava's stories, I just enjoy watching Lisa Peluso and Ava's core relationships)

[Vee]

I don't know who it was who said here (probably dc) that Guza was testing Trucker and Angie early on. That would've been great, although I thought Agnes was the one responsible for hiring Debbi Morgan (she did still have a producing interest in the show, so she could've done that regardless of being HW at the time perhaps).

I also don't feel I've seen enough of Trucker and Trisha to fully judge. I do love Alex and Ava.

[Forever8]

I hope someone is able to virtual interview Lisa Peluso about her time on SFT and Loving one of these days.

I do agree with you about how my enjoyment of Ava mostly comes from the performances and charisma of Lisa Peluso. Though I do like Alex/Ava as a couple I also love seeing her with her other core relationships too.

I'm in the middle of watching of Curtis/Dinah Lee wedding with Ava being protected by Jeremy. Even though I'm not a big fan of that pairing. I do like the scenes when Jeremy was zipping her dress up and she was teasing him about being this slow when it comes to unzipping out of the blue.

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That's why I believe Lisa one of the unsung heroes of Loving. 

[dc11786]

To me, Trucker and Trisha were simply a Trisha / Steve redux. If you were going to go that road, why not make Trucker a Sowolosky or a Rescott and call it a day. 

In the final days (March 1993) of Trisha and Trucker, they were simple a young married couple hanging out with their friends and living a happy life. Without all the constant melodrama, I understood why the couple was appealing, but they were just a lot to take as the show's central couple. 

I certainly agree that Stacey and Trucker would have been a thing had the show just continued. I just felt they got along too well and had nothing unique to keep them together as a couple. If the show was okay with Stacey and Trucker setting up house in the Donovan place and offering advice to the miserable people of Corinth that would have been fine. I just can't see them driving major story as a couple as either did in other pairings.  

There are times I wish they had cast Larkin Malloy as an Alden cousin. I don't think the writing was necessarily bad, but it wasn't right for Clay. I didn't appreciate how Addie Walsh found it necessary to write Dinahlee as a victim in order to keep her relationship with Clay going.

Parlato's Clay cohabitating at the Alden mansion with Tudor Newman's Gwyn lusting after Collins' Dinahlee while Marcantel's Curtis slowly unraveled was a missed opportunity. 

 

If Buck wasn't brought on for that specific reason, I do think the idea occurred along the way. Buck was an invention of Guza and Taggart who arrived shortly before Noelle Beck departed. The whole Persian Gulf backstory with Buck, Tess, and Curtis wasn't my favorite. I think Taggart and Guza would have commited to Tess / Trucker as end game which I think would have been very unfortunate. 

Stacey / Buck / Gwyn was an unlikely storyline that really worked. Brown had nice chemistry with both actresses. I didn't like the pregnancy storyline, but I do think it was a mistake to move Gwyn out of Stacey and Buck's orbit so quickly only to turn around and blow up a Clay / Gwyn revisit all in the name of accomodating the albatross that was Jeremy Hunter.  

@DRW50, you are spot on. I'd say there are a few more I enjoy. After Ally gets pregnant, I can take pretty much any configuration of the youth quad: Ally / Casey, Casey / Steffi, Cooper / Steffi, and Cooper / Ally. To be honest, Casey / Steffi was my favorite. I liked Clay and Gwyn with Parlato and Tudor Newman. Under Taggart / Guza, I did like Shana / Leo. 

After the initial reunion in the fall of 1993, I felt the Ava / Alex story could be trying at times. I enjoy things like Egypt's murder, but it is a story that required Egypt to go to the extremes in order to facilitate it. Ava taking over AE had huge potential, but that story was quickly nixed. I don't know if they ever properly dealt with the fallout of Alex shooting Gilbert, but I think that also had some legs. Ultimately, I don't hate that Alex and Ava didn't end together, but rather that Alex moved on with Jocelyn. 

Nixon is credited in September 1993. Debbi Morgan arrived in August 1993. It's entirely possible this was all in place and due to contracts. Taggart had previewed some big surprise returns for the show's tenth anniversary but none of that came to be. I'm not sure if she was talking about Alex Masters and Angie (return to daytime). Angie is introduced as the doctor helping Shana with her pregnancy. We also see her dealing with a very rebellious Frankie, who Trucker offers to take under his wing. Through Frankie, Trucker and Angie meet and Trucker asks Angie out, but Angie rejects this. The show had just moved Tess out of Trucker's orbit and into Curtis / Clay's worlds. 

 

Peluso definitely could deliver a solid performance even when the writing wasn't up to par. 

Jeremy and Ava had potential, but there stories didn't work. I actually liked Gilbert and Ava a little bit, but only in the sense of a tragic couple who would never be able to make it work. 

Ava and Alex in the mid 1990s always seemed to be in a story bubble and it would have been nice to seen them a bit more integrated. 

[DRW50]

Now that you mention it, Clay and Gwyn really did have a fantastic amount of chemistry, under multiple actors. I often don't include them as a couple because they rarely were in the show's lifespan, but I probably should. 

Clay and Steffi is another pairing where the actors click tremendously well, even if the relationship is obviously not one we should root for. 

I think a lot of your points about Ava and Alex are why I don't enjoy quite as much as I did at one time - Ava's exit and the idea that she was scared (and also stifling of Alex), etc. But Lisa and  Randolph were great together. 

[Forever8]

What did you think of Ava's exit? 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Forever8

[FrenchBug82]

Very very very unworthy of the importance of the character.
I mean it is not that I wanted her to be murdered but I felt it was insulting to the audience and to LP, frankly. Such a flimsy not-in-character excuse for a low-key exit.
If I didn't know the show was one month from its end, this would have felt like a last-minute rushed exit after contract talks broke down. Not a well though-out closure for one of the best and most popular characters the show had had.
I get that they didn't want to bring her on The City but wanted to keep the door open to bring her back later on as a spoiler for whatever Alex would be doing but... Man. For all the brilliance of the final months of Loving, this was one sore point for me.
 

I am glad I am not the only one who, while seeing the chemistry Ally and Casey had, did not stan for them in as much of a black and white way as the show wanted.
I really was rooting for Cooper and Ally, long after the show made very clear she didn't really love him. I guess it was the nostalgia for their early days but I loved the chemistry between them. Both MW and PMS could get it from me any day but Casey was such a downer at times while Cooper was always fun and charming even when he was an a**h***e so I guess I was leaning towards him more.
And yes I am talking to my therapist about my attraction to charming a**h***es.

They had a really nice friendship but I am surprised to hear ya'll think they would have gone there and it would have been viable. It would have a huge NO for me. Dating your "great love"'s best friend is always a bit touchy but it would have been out-of-character for both of them, chemistry or not. One thing we had established about them was their almost self-righteousness. This would have felt wrong...
I also liked genuine non-sexual friendship and affection between a male character and a female character on a soap. It is so rare! I never projected any romantic potential on them because I always thought they'd feel too guilty about Trisha if the show was writing them in character.

God bless CH and there was nothing wrong with her characterization but nothing they did with Tess gelled for me at any time. Particularly not romantic pairings. 

[Vee]

I think Cat had chemistry with just about everyone they put her with on Loving, including Robert Tyler. But I don't think Trucker/Tess would've worked as an actual couple at all despite her clearly being infatuated with him. She was bad news. Tess was a tougher and more cynical character than Lindsay Rappaport on OLTL; Tess would've played her into a corner many times.

I second the PAS/Heinle chemistry - they had it. The quad with them, LW and Weatherly was so dynamic with the chemistry between each one, it was so modular that they were able to play variations or add other people into it and just circle them around each other forever.

I thought Ava's last scenes were good, and I loved her last little speech to Alex. But I don't think they felt like last scenes. Right to the end I kept expecting her to turn up one more time. I know they'd intended to use her kids on TC and of course that didn't happen. If there was ever a chance to do a little LOV tribute on ABC today, I'd go after Lisa and Randolph Mantooth for it in a second. (Don't get me started on what I'd do with a Loving-themed Halloween episode)

I guess someone has re-uploaded a few episodes. Not quite the quality I remember, but still serviceable. Here's Ava's final monologue again.  I rhapsodized about the genius of Lisa Peluso as Ava last summer as revisiting the Loving Murders (and 90s Loving in general) helped me weather 2020, so I won't do that again, but she's so good.

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Edited July 22, 2021 by Vee