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Message added by Errol,

loving_02_800x500.jpg

LOVING

  • June 26, 1983 - November 10, 1995 on ABC

THE CITY

  • November 13, 1995 - March 28, 1997 on ABC

Loving/The City Discussion Thread

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  • Member
1 minute ago, DRW50 said:

Dennis was very good (I'm sorry that he didn't seem to get soap work after his impossible tenure at GL), although my favorite Clay was James Horan. I think he gets many of the difficult nuances of the character. I like Larkin Malloy well enough but if they got rid of Horan for him it was a mistake. Maybe they didn't as I think there is a months-long gap.

Oooh. I just did a Google search. Yikes. He was set up to fail.

Speaking of the Clays, did Randolph Mantooth's make any impression on you in this role?

Edited by CrazySexyQ

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3 minutes ago, CrazySexyQ said:

Do you mind going into detail about this?

Speaking of the Clays, did Randolph Mantooth's make any impression on you in this role?

Just that he took over for Michael Zaslow after Michael was fired due to his illness. Fans were never going to accept him, although he tried. He was there for about a year. I don't think he had any regular soap work from then on.

I haven't watched all of Randolph's run as Clay but Mantooth's charm and screen presence is heavy. He also has a lot of chemistry with Roya Megnot. The layers in some of his relationships like Gwyn aren't there the way they are with later Clays. When the real Clay returns, there's an emphasis on how much nicer "Clay" was, but I haven't seen a lot of that in how he treats various people. I guess his kids, especially Trisha, he did have a kinder heart for, although the real Clay also loved Trisha. I am trying to remember how they compared in how they treated Curtis and Rick.

He also seems nicer to Ann. Is Ann still around to interact with the real Clay?

@dc11786 @Kane This reminds me. In some of the March 1989 recaps I see mentions of Isabelle admitting she knew Alex was an imposter all along. Was this ever said onscreen or just thrown in after the reveal? From what you've said, Isabelle was barely around for a lot of 87-88 anyway.

This should have been mentioned during the whole story about Clay not being Cabot's son. Clay saying you hated me so much you preferred Alex over me. I guess Alex was gone and not mentioned at this time.

Edited by DRW50

  • Member
1 hour ago, DRW50 said:

I wonder if Walsh was talking about Arthur fantasizing about Tricia - doesn't he eventually confess his love for her?

This thread and the Loving blog have given me more interest in Walsh than any of her work I ever watched, due to the thoughts on her writing for Cooper and Ava (and how other writers let the characters down).

I really like the idea of Heather becoming close to Gwyn because Stacey starts to focus more on an injured JJ. Stories that could have written themselves and it would have been more interesting than the Buck drama either lady had.

Arthur fantasizing about Trisha is about a year later under Taggar and Guza. I believe they toy very briefly with a Arthur / Staige pairing in the fall of 1992 right before they wrote out Staige. I imagine that Arhur's story would have been some sort of Ugly Duckling tale where they would have made him handsome and probably paired him up with someone like Staige. Or maybe they were going to have Arthur fall for Casey before they settled on him and Ally.

Walsh's writing for Ava was pretty bad. The first six months are basically the winding down of the Paul / Ava / Carly story and storyline limbo before they put Ava at Burnell's with Casey where they sorta tease a Casey / Ava flirtation before settling on Ava / Leo, which would have been a forgettable pairing had Taggart and Guza not thrown Shana into the mix.

One of the few characters who were served well by Walsh I would say was Gwyn, but she has no story, just decent character writing.

I like Buck and Stacey more than I thought I would, but I will say I do find the money story, at times, a little shallow. I think if they were going to delve deeper into Buck's need to be a provider based on the fact that his father had been a wanderer and the fact that Stacey was raised in a rather large, stable Irish Catholic household that I think there would be story to mine from that. I appreciated the Buck / JJ dynamic and that scene from March, 1994, where Buck tells Heather he is leaving breaks my heart. It just is often a very surface level story amplified by strong acting, emotional beats, and strong, moody background music.

32 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Dennis was very good (I'm sorry that he didn't seem to get soap work after his impossible tenure at GL), although my favorite Clay was James Horan. I think he gets many of the difficult nuances of the character. I like Larkin Malloy well enough but if they got rid of Horan for him it was a mistake. Maybe they didn't as I think there is a months-long gap.

The more I've seen of Horan, he has grown on me. I think he does a good job playing a lot of Clay's pain and is saddled with a lot of byzantine backstory involving spies, espionage, and hypnosis. He is a real contender in those 1990-1991 episodes when his story is more grounded in the complicated relationship he had with Cabot and his layered romance with Gwyn (both Elizabeth Savage and Christine Tudor Newman).

I believe Larkin Malloy appears as Clay appears from like January - July, 1992 and then returns in September with Dennis Parlato assuming the role in early October. I think the month gap starts and ends with Malloy, but I may be wrong.

And speaking of recasts, I'm not hating what we are seeing of Robert Dubac, but its a very different version of the Alex character.

14 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I haven't watched all of Randolph's run as Clay but Mantooth's charm and screen presence is heavy. He also has a lot of chemistry with Roya Megnot. The layers in some of his relationships like Gwyn aren't there the way they are with later Clays. When the real Clay returns, there's an emphasis on how much nicer "Clay" was, but I haven't seen a lot of that in how he treats various people. I guess his kids, especially Trisha, he did have a kinder heart for, although the real Clay also loved Trisha. I am trying to remember how they compared in how they treated Curtis and Rick.

He also seems nicer to Ann. Is Ann still around to interact with the real Clay?

@dc11786 @Kane This reminds me. In some of the March 1989 recaps I see mentions of Isabelle admitting she knew Alex was an imposter all along. Was this ever said onscreen or just thrown in after the reveal? From what you've said, Isabelle was barely around for a lot of 87-88 anyway.

This should have been mentioned during the whole story about Clay not being Cabot's son. Clay saying you hated me so much you preferred Alex over me. I guess Alex was gone and not mentioned at this time.

I also haven't seen a whole lot of Randy Mantooth as Clay, and, to be honest, anything I would see would probably be biased based on the story that comes later. I don't think Clay was particularly kind to Rick as he rejects Gwyn's claim early on. I don't remember if I have seen much of Mantooth with Burke Moses' Curtis, but I don't think there was a lot of overlap with them either (maybe 6-8 months). You'd think there would be some juicy material with Clay romancing Curtis' ex-wife, but I don't know. By the time Ava and "Clay" marry, Burke Moses has been gone for a bit.

I think there should be some overlap in time with Ann and Clay, but I'm never really clear when Callan White leaves. I think she returns briefly in 1990 for Trucker and Trisha's wedding or maybe it's Jack and Stacey's so she and Clay would be in town then.

The Isabelle scene is from March/April, 1989, and can be found in the recent uploads. I think King and Taggart try to frame it is as "a mother knows her child," but personally it felt like a plot device to negate some of the hostility Cabot was bound to feel towards Ava for keeping quiet about "Clay" being Alex. Isabelle goes on and on about how she did it to keep her family from falling apart. It is a bit of a stretch, and bless Dabney for trying to sell it.

Don't get me started on Clay is Tim Sullivan's son. It was such a bizarre story decision. I know when Walsh did the story on Riviera it was meant to negate an incest plot between an illegitimate son and the family's princess daughter. It also wasn't revealed until one of the final episodes. I could see how the reveal could have created real hostility for Shana and Clay, but I don't know what they were going to do with it as Shana is sidelined for most of 1992. I think there was some weight to be made about Clay being raised an Alden just like Jack was, but it was such an odd decision. This also climaxed during the rumored Haidee Granger ghost writing period so its possible we didn't see everything Walsh had originally intended. There is one decent scene from October, 1994, when Cabot gives the diner to Clay and Clay confronts Cabot about his paternity.

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