ALL: What about Bill Bell's writing made his stories and shows the top standard?

[titan1978]

It was the filming style too- the kind of detached quality was accentuated by the staging. The ubiquitous foreground character and the person in the background shots, the specific way characters talked to themselves sometimes, the story isolation, the music. 
 

I think Marland’s work, especially on ATWT had that detached air as well. But it was very much a kitchen sink type of drama. Of the three of them, I think Agnes Nixon’s work was the most modern, even going all the way back to OLTL. She had her finger on the pulse and deeply understood the traditions of the medium.

Which really was present in the early 90’s- Victor, Nikki, and Victoria were often awful to other characters. Nick had the Newman arrogance, but not tinged with as much classism as Victoria. It didn’t make them any less compelling or make me want them to not be there. Look at Lauren- she’s a monster to Traci, and all the way through Sheila has an edge. Plus my favorite Katherine is the one cutting up photos of Jill and Jack in bed together, and then trying to drive a wedge between Jill and Phillip II. Complex without going too far. 

[1974mdp]

ITA. I think he was allowed to tell his stories HIS WAY for the most part, so you didn't have twenty cooks in the kitchen trying to have influence, and you're actually getting someone's vision. The same could be said, for better or worse, about the control James Reilly had over Passions. That show was totally bonkers, but it did have a strong point-of-view.

I wasn't the biggest fan of Y&R in the 80s/90s. I thought it moved awfully slow at times, but I watched a good bit of the show because my mother did. Looking back though, I appreciate how he took the time to go through every beat in a story and his character development.

If you look at B&B now, for example, stories often end or are dropped in a single episode, such as Taylor and Brooke's friendship or the way people switch partners, back and forth, in the blink of an eye. It's like...who cares who's with Ridge or Liam now. It can all change next week. There are often no long-term impacts of a story. The best stories lead the audience to the NEXT story. Whatever happens on B&B is often immediately forgotten. Also, stories will come out of nowhere with no build-up, such as Zende suddenly not liking RJ. It's hard to get emotionally invested in this type of storytelling.

If Bell were still writing Y&R, I seriously doubt we'd be getting these non-stop business stories about vague companies, all stories with ZERO emotional impact. Who cares where someone is working this week??? They'll work at another company next week.

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by 1974mdp

[lucaslesann23]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Love reading what you all thought of him 

 

Another question I guess I have is: Kay Alden was his protégé right? When he stepped back as the head Writer in 98, was there any major differences with her material and his or was the transition seamless? I do things started to get iffy when Jack Smith got more power but, his son had cancer or something.

Edited November 27, 2023 by lucaslesann23

[Liberty City]

Well, Kay Alden wrote as sole head writer following Bell's exit in 1998, up until 2000, when John F. Smith & Jerry Birn and later Trent Jones came in.

[Khan]

I'd say the transition was seamless for the most part.  After all, Kay Alden had been with Y&R since 1974, so she knew the show.  Furthermore, even when Bill Bell was still head-writing, she had played such a part in the conception and development of so many storylines that it'd be nearly impossible to tell the difference between her work and his.  (Same goes for Agnes Nixon and her protégé at AMC, Wisner Washam.  Washam officially became HW in 1981, but reports suggest that Washam probably was head-writing with Nixon sooner).

Unless you paid attention to the credits, you wouldn't have known when Bill Bell's work officially ended and when hers began.  At least, not until the sperm switch.  (I won't go into THAT storyline, lol).

Personally, I think it was a mistake to bring in John F. Smith when they did.  I think Alden was HW'ing the show just fine (again, sperm switch notwithstanding, lol), but I think TPTB panicked when the ratings dropped - never mind that ratings were dropping for all soaps and that Y&R was still number-one - and decided she needed a Co-HW.  And I think it was an even bigger mistake when then-CBSD president (or vice-president) Barbara Bloom had Lynn Marie Latham to join them.  At least Smith (and Bern/Jones) had had a long history with Y&R, so they knew the show like Alden did.  But LML had no prior relationship with Y&R, nor was Y&R ever her kind of show.  Anyone who'd seen her work on other shows - BERRENGER'S, KNOTS LANDING, HOMEFRONT, PC, etc - could've told the network as much.  Her hiring was truly the moment when Y&R fell from grace.

[Vee]

I am no authority on the Bell soaps, everything truly worthwhile has been said by other more knowledgeable people. But from an outsider's POV, what stays with me every time I've had the privilege to go back and rewatch classic material as an adult is the very specific, specialized tone and style, not just visually or musically but in terms of character. They clearly knew every inch of those characters and their aspirations or neuroses, and it seems to inform everything they do even in workaday episodes. They also let you live with and sit in new situations - the period where Nikki was married to Jack, Jack raising her children with her, really stood out for me when I realized (which I hadn't for a long time) that Nikki and Victor were apart for maybe close to a decade before reuniting. Jack and Nikki was not a plot point, it was a lived-in chapter in their lives that stretched out. And the generational history, with the two big Jills and Katherine, with Jerry Douglas' John and his son, with Jill's son, Nina, etc. was so rich. It could be very arch, but it leaned into it and owned that.

When I was younger I often compared watching classic Y&R to staring at 'an ornate couch' - I don't think that description is entirely inaccurate, especially compared to the visceral and very different ABC soaps of the early '90s. But what a couch! It's a whole other world, and that is what I think kept people coming back. There is a reason my ancient babysitter as a small child was glued faithfully to CBS in the '80s and very early '90s throughout the afternoon, even if Nadia's Theme used to drive me crazy. (And no, I have zero memory of Marland's ATWT from that period except for the opening sequence, which I did like.) You know when you are watching classic Y&R - there is no mistaking it for another soap.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Vee

[Liberty City]

Imagine a day where ratings drop = automatic change! The horror! The nerve!

[Khan]

Again, ratings were dropping across the board for all soaps.  Apparently, TPTB didn't take that into account.

[Broderick]

In my opinion, Kay Alden held her own once she was in charge, even breathed some fresh life into the show.  This would've been 1998-2000 (approximately).  But then she stalled completely; she hit a series of storyline duds.  She introduced a character named "Sean Bridges" into Jill Foster's orbit, cloaked him in mystery, recast him spontaneously, had him spout out a bunch of mumbo-jumbo about sleeping on futons, and then dropped him without exploring any of it fully.  She squandered the final months of Shemar Moore's contract with a ridiculous story involving a "retro prom" for an unlikable character named Alex Perez.  She wasted months spinning her wheels on Mackenzie Browning's dull mother, Amanda Browning.  And then there was her downright bizarre obsession with sperm and sputum (Victor's sperm, Cassie's sputum). I kept waiting for her to introduce smegma into the mix. Just what we all we wanted to hear about during lunch!  

The ratings dropped substantially -- from the high 7's to the low 5's. 

Jack Smith was brought in to "help" her.  Whether he'd simply lost his mind (or whether he was acting under a mandate from SONY), he introduced the most childlike, juvenile stories in Y&R's history:  Look! -- upper-middle class Brittany is suddenly a STRIPPER!!!  Bad Boy JT is crooning syrupy love ballads to Colleen and porking Mrs. Hodges!!!  Kay Chancellor forgot she had another child and -- surprise!! -- it's JILL!!  It was just one disaster after another.  And the ratings reflected it.  It was as though a twelve-year-old boy was the head writer.   

By the time Lyn Marie Latham pranced onto the scene with her reliquaries, there was nowhere to go but up!  Miss Latham, however, figured out a way to go down even farther.  And so have all her successors.        

[Paul Raven]

Not to disrespect Kay Alden and her talents but she was not Bill Bell. She may have worked closely with him and collaborated but ultimately he came up with the characters and stories.

When she took over the characters and stories were established and she could work off of that. But when the next phase began eg Sean the cracks began to show.

When did Ed Scott depart? There must have been CBS execs who worked with Bell for years and maybe didn't have the same relationship with Kay as they did with Bill.

Maybe Kay didn't have the same'people skills' as Bill?

So many variables enter the picture. Human nature being what it is, maybe there were those that saw Bill's departure as a way to assert themselves.

Kay needs to spill the tea!!

[BetterForgotten]

Whether you enjoyed it or not, Bell’s Y&R was an auteurist vision - something that became increasingly difficult to find in daytime. Other than Slesar’s EON, there’s no other long-term and sustainable comparison in this medium, IMO.

In the sense that no matter who came after - it was just never going to be the same again. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by BetterForgotten

[YRfan23]

Supposedly Ed Scott was responsible for most of the casting choices during that time but I think Alden got most of the blame. I know Scott was responsible somehow for Alex Donnellys departure.

What did you think of the Newman vs Jabot takeover stuff during that time? I always think while it was a great umbrella story with jabot finally returning to the Abbott’s after ten years and going toe to toe with Newman, I can’t help be bothered by Victoria and Nicks attitudes towards Jack wanting to takeover their fathers company considering they both loved him like a father when he was married to Nikki and I thought had some understanding of why Jack sought vengeance against for Victor did with Jabot. I guess them being more groomed to be apart of their fathers legacy sparked that attitude but I just hate how they just brushed aside how supportive of a stepfather and even stepmother Jack and Ashley were to them when they were younger. Even Neil becoming Victors gopher and wanting to help him smear jabot again doesn’t sit right with me because John Abbott brought him on, and I feel that’s throwing that gratitude back in his face for aiding with the enemy. 

[Paul Raven]

Irna Phillip's 13 years at ATWT?

[BetterForgotten]

Irna was in and out for some of that time, no? But I guess she would be the template that few were able to follow in that regard. 

[wonderwoman1951]

 

thank you both for these astute observations.

for years, i’ve struggled to articulate why i prefered the p&g soaps, i had always described as a styalistic preference, but never realized it was the actual day-to-day writing. 

and, as donna noted, while cbs pretty much left bill bell to his own devices, the network felt that the p&g soaps needed the network’s “help.” have that on the record from lucy johnson!

of course, that help led both gl and ‘world turns straight down the [!@#$%^&*]-shute.