The death of the American mall

[Mr. Vixen]

There are no words for this ignorance.

[marceline]

Again, free speech doesn't mean that the rest of us don't have the right to tell you when we think you are wrong. You folks love free speech as long as nobody else uses it. If Alphaguy doesn't want to participate in the discussion any further that's his choice. The marketplace of ideas means that different ideas get debated and by necessity rejected and/or repudiated. No one has a right to approval or agreement. Say bigoted things and you get called a bigot. If that's a problem one can either 1.) stop saying bigoted things or 2.) say them someplace where they would meet with approval.

[Max]

Of course you have the right to sharply disagree with Alphanguy and tell him that you think that he is incorrect. But there never appeared to be any real debate about why you felt he was so wrong in his beliefs. Instead, he was just called a bigot and it was requested that the thread be locked and that he be reported to the moderators. I can understand why the topic of gangs and racial stereotypes would be emotionally uncomfortable for African-Americans, but it helps to get out of one's comfort zone and have a meaningful exchange of ideas rather than shouting "racist, racist." Explain why you think he's wrong, ignorant, and bigoted rather than just saying so (and demanding that he keep his opinions to himself). This is the only way a substantive racial dialogue will ever occur.

What I explained above is how the free marketplace of ideas is supposed to work. Attempting to muzzle discussion because it makes you uncomfortable would be analogous to trying to shut a new store down right after it opens, because you don't like the products that it sells, or the prices that it charges. We all know that the free market doesn't work this way. And when you tell people who differ from you to take their opinions to someplace where they would be met with approval, can I then assume that you would approve of the far-right crazies at Breitbart trying to intimidate anyone who brings in opposing ideas to the circle jerk that goes on at that site? Are you OK with them scaring off dissenters to other sites, where their opinions can be met with approval?

Now, I would actually like to talk about a mall that was mentioned earlier: Crossgates Mall. I really enjoyed the promotional video that was shared. It used to be the Albany region's dominant mall, but I think that its crown was recently threatened by Colonie Center (which was dying at one point). Colonie Center underwent a very nice renovation and expansion and is anchored by Boscov's, Macy's (much bigger and nicer than the one found at Crossgates), Sears, Barnes & Noble, Christmas Tree Shops, L.L. Bean, and Whole Foods.

When Crossgates Mall opened in 1984, it obviously blew its competition away. As the video mentioned, it was anchored by Caldor (whose name the announcer mispronounced), Filene's, JC Penney, and Jordan Marsh. Ten years later, its dominance grew even more when it essentially doubled in size; the addition was anchored by Lord & Taylor and a new Filene's store (while the original Filene's was split between Nobody Beats the Wiz and Dick's Sporting Goods). Many more anchor changes would follow:

*In 1996, Jordan Marsh was renamed Macy's.

*Nobody Beats the Wiz closed its store in 1997. (The entire chain would go out of business in 2003.) Cohoes Fashions filled the space.

*Caldor went out of business in 1999 and its space was split between H&M and Best Buy.

*L&T closed in 2005 when that chain ran into serious financial trouble.

*In 2006, Filene's was renamed Macy's. The decision was made to relocate the existing Macy's location to the Filene's location in the mall.

*Cohoes Fashions was renamed Burlington Coat Factory in 2007.

*Dick's Sporting Goods moved to the vacant L&T building in 2009. The original Dick's then became a Forever 21.

*In 2011, H&M relocated elsewhere in the mall, and its space was filled by a mini-golf establishment.

*Later this year, L&T (which has seen its fortunes turn around) will return to the mall and occupy the former Jordan Marsh/first Macy's building.

Now that there will soon be zero vacant anchors at Crossgates, it will arguably once again be Albany's #1 mall. I would have to say that back when it had two big department store vacancies, however, its supremacy was overtaken by Colonie Center.

[Cheap21]

Nobody tried to muzzle anyone here . One can write what they want but if you are going to spout offensive bulls--t, then expect to be called out on it. This is nothing new and I suspect it's often done to ignite a predictable reaction. I've come to ignore some of this troll boat but there are times like in this one, I was truly flabbergasted and had to say something

[Ryan Chamberlain]

From what I can remember. It was always pretty upscale. Before Macy's it had a Lazarus store (expensive chain store here in the south from the 80s-2005), a Dillards, and Nordies. All anchors. It's on the rich side of Lexington. But, I love that place for the freaking MAC store like I said. Gimme all the makeup!

[juppiter]

Of course, it was never near-dead. Colonie never really was near-dead either, although it was clearly the lesser mall before it was remodeled a few years ago. In Albany the smaller, older, more primitive malls died first. The big, regional, mall style malls did not die. I think because the area avoided becoming "overmalled." Something the other upstate cities like Rochester and Syracuse did not avoid. The "DestinyUSA" quagmire that has failed in Syracuse was actually first proposed in 1998 for Crossgates. The people of Guilderland (where Crossgates is) saw they were being sold a bill of goods and told the developer to take a hike. Unfortunately, the people of Syracuse were more gullible (or their politicians more greedy -- this is more likely) and they are now stuck with way too much mall with way too many tax breaks not generating nearly the promised jobs.

[Max]

I had forgotten that Pyramid wanted to expand Crossgates in a similarly outrageous manner to the way they have since expanded Syracuse's Carousel Center. (The entire Carousel Center complex has since been renamed Destiny USA.) Unfortunately, the addition to that mall is very ugly and mirrors the "warehouse look" that is present at Pyramid's Palisades Center in West Nyack (Rockland County).

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I thought that Crossgates Mall was a dead mall, as I never thought that. I just meant to suggest that, in my opinion, it was not as prestigious as Colonie Center back when Crossgates had two big anchor vacancies: the original Lord & Taylor building (which has since been filled by the mall's second Dick's Sporting Goods location) and the Jordan Marsh/first Macy's location (which will soon be the home of the mall's second Lord & Taylor location). I did erroneously think that Colonie Center was in serious trouble, and I really appreciate your correction regarding the history of that mall. From what I read, Colonie Center was pretty run down, and the renovation (which also allowed it to attract more upscale tenants) really breathed new life into the mall. (I should say that I am not from the area, and that I only visited these malls in 2008. I actually enjoy studying shopping malls as a hobby, and a good site, apart from the deadmalls.com site mentioned earlier, is labelscar.com.)

In 1984, there were more malls serving the Albany region than mentioned in the Crossgates Mall promotional video. For instance, there was the Latham Circle Mall, which is being demolished for new retail space. Also existing at that time was the Clifton Country Mall (which actually was expanded in the 1980's in an attempt to compete with Crossgates); this mall has since been partially de-malled and renamed Clifton Park Center.

This (now seven year-old) article has a great breakdown of the Albany region's shopping malls:

http://www.labelscar.com/new-york/albany-case-study

Many of these malls are profiled on labelscar.com.

[juppiter]

The owner of Pyramid, Bob Congel, is a clever kind of shyster. DestinyUSA was supposed to be a hotel, amusement park, mall, and destination, and it was supposed to be a model of "green" sustainability or whatever (never mind that ANY mall is inherently not green.) Would that have been a tourist destination? Maybe, but probably not. What ended up happening instead is just a bigger mall in a rust belt city that is not growing at a time when malls in general are not growing. But he got away with it and I'm sure he is laughing all the way to the bank. When I think of all the big multi million dollar projects that have come to Upstate Ny and flopped spectacularly, I'm reminded of the Monorail episode of the Simpsons.

In spite of Congel's questionable business ethics I was still impressed by the Crossgates video. The scope of the project would certainly never happen today (and it certainly wouldn't have been allowed to be built on the Pine Bush Preserve, which it was). The NIMBYs would eat it alive.

Also, interesting article. Though I don't consider Northway Mall a real mall, because the actual retail space is still in use, it's just the enclosed mall portion that was closed.

[alphanguy74]

Oh, y'all tried, but failed miserably. The "so and so is a racist" is the only card in your deck, and honey, I just don't care if you play it all day. Thanks for sticking up for me, Max... but trying to debate a bunch of under 25 EBT queens is pretty much futile. They don't have the intelligence to engage in serious debate. There's just nobody driving the damn bus.

[Bright Eyes]

Not getting into this argument, but marceline is a woman in her 50's, if I'm not mistaken.

[ReddFoxx]

And here comes Max, the lecturing conservative. Why is it that conservatives always act like they are being beaten in a cell in North Korea when someone disagrees with them?

[ReddFoxx]

You are doing nothing to prove that you aren't racist. You are a damn, racist troll, nothing more. That EBT comments proves exactly who you are.

[Eric83]

It's grasping at straws. I've never been on EBT and even if I was I fail to see what that has to do with the argument. It is so racist and misogynistic. I'm going to mention it in my prayers tonight.

[alphanguy74]

It's not my job to prove anything, and it would be futile anyway, because you see racism in every nook and cranny. It's called paranoia. Look it up.

[ReddFoxx]

Bye, troll.