Khalil re signs with Y&R

[xtr]

I'm too lazy to rea dthse short essay replies. I will just says as a black woman I look at CK's Lily and don't see a black women and yes I have met quite a few black girls with that valley girl drawl as well as quite a few hispanic girls with that drawl. It annoys me on any and everyone.

Like it or not you grow up resembling bits and pieces of your parents and her Lily doesn't resembler either person who raised her even a little bit.

I also don't think that Lily really resembles either of one of her parents much. She really doesn't seem that much like Neil or Dru.

Well, first I'd tell Tiger to avoid all mirrors, pictures of his father, and the outside world. But seriously, all bi-/multiracial people have the right to acknowledge their full heritage. As a first generation biracial person who had a very even upbringing, I always identified as biracial. I have friends (and know of celebrities) who grew up similarly, but only identify as black. That's their choice, though I disagree with it. I really don't care about what "the world" has to say with its one dropism and all that, I will not disrespect myself, nor my father and his loving family that raised me by denying half of who I am. I just don't see how a biracial person raised by a single white mother won't claim to be half white, but that's their business.

I think that there are a lot of biracial/multiracial people that identify themselves as both/all of their races. And I think that's a good thing. I also think there are some/a lot that identify/feel more comfortable with one part of their race, more than the other part. I think that's okay as long as they aren't flat out denying their other side/other sides. For example there are some people that are biracial like half-black/half-white, but tend to identify more with one side, like their black side. I think that's okay, just as long as they aren't trying to pretend like they don't have one white parent/are disrespecting one of their parents.

A biracial half black/half white person might identify themselves as a black person, but they will still say they are also half-white. It might not be the first thing that comes out of their mouth, if they start talking about themselves, but they will eventually bring it up. And if you ask them, they won't deny it or loving their white parent/parent of another race. I think that situations like that are okay. Some of them will see themselves as a black person but one who is also half-white. Or they view themselves as Hispanic person, but one who happens to be half-white. They just feel more comfortable identifying themselves more with one of their sides.

They aren't trying to deny/disrespect who raised them, that's just how they feel. I can understand why some people might not care for that, but I understand where they are coming. I think it's okay just as long as they aren't completely denying their other sid/disrespecting their other parent. Which I don't think that a lot of them who feel this way do. You do have some people that will unfortunately completely deny their other side(s) other parents, but hopefully a ton of people aren't doing that.

[Wales2004]

I think that there are a lot of biracial/multiracial people that identify themselves as both/all of their races. And I think that's a good thing. I also think there are some/a lot that identify/feel more comfortable with one part of their race, more than the other part. I think that's okay as long as they aren't flat out denying their other side/other sides.

Society forces some of these people into choosing the black side or otherwise makes the choice for them. Halle Berry said that her mother told her society was going to see her as black and I've heard others and read about others who basically said the same thing. People will look at others at make the determination for them and only those who are seen as racially ambiguous get to make their own choices. Sure someone who looks black to others may identify as biracial but chances are that there are people who are going to insist that he or she accept the black label or they'll go on and on about it as happens with Tiger Woods. It's his business but everyone else wants to make it theirs.

I once watched Rob Parker (ESPN-First Take) "disown" Tiger Woods because he won't admit to being black. Then he turned around on another show and said that Derek Jeter had no choice because some guys in Detroit called him "N" as if he wouldn't "disown" him as well.

I love how Barack Obama had to go to Chicago or wherever in search of his black identity because apparently being black doesn't just come naturally, you can actually learn how to be black. If he just wanted to know about his own personal history then he could have left it at research about Kenya since that's where his black roots are.

So if you're biracial in America and you look black then this can be your theme song when people say you know you're black right:

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WFY2kJ96jNY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[alphanguy74]

I think we're almost right there in terms of trying to resist this. We differ on the term "African-American" which I will shout at the top of my lungs whenever, wherever is a useless term to me. It seems to come from the need to make all black people in America (wthether they were born here or not and regardless of their background) a single monolithic group which is wrong. Every black person in America is not a descendant of slaves which is what the main commonality is based and all the slaves were not from the same ethnic group or country as Africa is a continent made up of many nations and not some singular united nation. It's so evident that this term is a major source of confusion when all you have to do is listen to how many times within one conversation, people will refer to black and "African-American" as if they are interchangeable.

Most of what is referred to as "black vernacular" seems to be a combination of some exaggerated drawl (southern in nature), bad or even atrocious grammar, and maybe even slang. If people could learn to accept that just because some black Americans speak a certain way does not mean all black Americans speak that way nor are compelled to speak that way, things would be peachy. But no, you've got both black and non-black Americans who feel it's their duty to tell people how to be black and "talk black" and they are too ignorant to understand that you should not have to be told how to be a certain race. Your skin isn't going to change colors miraculously and your skin has nothing to do with your speech patterns, how you walk or how you behave. It's the ignorant people in society that try to inflict their ignorance on society by telling people how they should act because they "look black."

I agree with this. First, I also think African American is a stupid term, and I never use it.. but then I was a kid in the 70's, and "black" was the term of choice, which makes sense... because at first glance, you can't tell if someone is truly african american or dominican, or jamaican, or whatever. And most ACTUAL Africans will tell you they are offended by being called "African american". Speech is what it is... I don't see it as wrong or ignorant if it's just a difference in dialect. Since I talk with an ozark accent, we say stuff like "Taters" and what have you... but I don't think it sounds ignorant.

[VirginiaHamilton]

And when I think of my black family, the type of people whose lives I'd love to see dramatized on screen, I just don't see and hear them on soaps as often as I'd love to.

Same here, though I don't consider this POV to be selfish or self-serving, as I believe that we (and by that, I mean Black viewers such as myself) have a right to demand authentic portrayals of Black soap characters that aren't stereotypical or whitewashed. The fact that we had more of those 15-20 years ago than we do now is a major reason why the soaps are becoming extinct, as these writers refuse to put in the hard work (or hire those who are willing to) to properly write for (if they even bother to) Black characters and Valley Girl Lily is a symptom of their apathy/short-sightedness.

On another note, I'm sick of hearing of that 'talking white' argument being used as a rebuttal to the real criticism against the soaps (or TV/movies, for that matter). Frankly, it's a flimsy-assed excuse that only serves to distract from the fact that whitewashing doesn't have jack to do with being able to speak the King's English or being able to conduct oneself without falling prey to ratchet behavior. It has to do with being divorced/estranged from the rich fabric of Black culture and I'm tired of having to see that sh!t on my screen because non-Black people can't wrap their mind around a Black character that is equivalent (or, in some cases, superior) to non-Black characters in every way.

End rant.

[Wales2004]

I agree with this. First, I also think African American is a stupid term, and I never use it.. but then I was a kid in the 70's, and "black" was the term of choice, which makes sense... because at first glance, you can't tell if someone is truly african american or dominican, or jamaican, or whatever. And most ACTUAL Africans will tell you they are offended by being called "African american". Speech is what it is... I don't see it as wrong or ignorant if it's just a difference in dialect. Since I talk with an ozark accent, we say stuff like "Taters" and what have you... but I don't think it sounds ignorant.

I never thought of it that way but you're right. You cannot look at white people either and determine who's Irish, English, American.

For the most part people seem to agree that behavior, speech patterns, etc. are emulated as there seems to be agreement that people are products of their environment. So if you stick a bunch of kids in an environment with people who speak a certain way and use a certain vocabulary and they have no or limited contact with others who differ then the kids will for the most part speak in the same manner (inflections), etc. just as the whole regional speech patterns occur. How do you end up concluding this is all racial (or apparently unique to black people) knowing that if you took black kids and placed them in homes where people didn't speak in this "black" way that those kids wouldn't not by "black skin osmosis" speak in that "black" way?

Black culture is another term I find useless. What's black culture when black people are all over the world and don't do the same things, eat the same things, etc.? Brazil has (I believe) the largest black population outside of the African continent. If any black people get to create "black culture" then it would come from outside of America where there are more black people and specifically from the continent of Africa where there are the most black people but all the African nations have their own specific culture so it's hardly likely that they will settle on one and label it as "black."

This is a whole topic on its own and doesn't belong in this thread. I am very sorry for getting carried away and I'll just go back to music. Thanks everyone!! I have learned a lot from all of you.

[ChitHappens]

Same here, though I don't consider this POV to be selfish or self-serving, as I believe that we (and by that, I mean Black viewers such as myself) have a right to demand authentic portrayals of Black soap characters that aren't stereotypical or whitewashed. The fact that we had more of those 15-20 years ago than we do now is a major reason why the soaps are becoming extinct, as these writers refuse to put in the hard work (or hire those who are willing to) to properly write for (if they even bother to) Black characters and Valley Girl Lily is a symptom of their apathy/short-sightedness.

On another note, I'm sick of hearing of that 'talking white' argument being used as a rebuttal to the real criticism against the soaps (or TV/movies, for that matter). Frankly, it's a flimsy-assed excuse that only serves to distract from the fact that whitewashing doesn't have jack to do with being able to speak the King's English or being able to conduct oneself without falling prey to ratchet behavior. It has to do with being divorced/estranged from the rich fabric of Black culture and I'm tired of having to see that sh!t on my screen because non-Black people can't wrap their mind around a Black character that is equivalent (or, in some cases, superior) to non-Black characters in every way.

End rant.

+1

[frequentsoapfan]

I don't like using the term AA for myself in particular because technically we're not AA. Both my parents are immigrants and my dad is not even an American citizen

[ChitHappens]

These arguments just sum up why VR has not been asked back. Difficult to work with? Bullchit! Again I ask, how many physical altercations has she had? Did she walk around dictating who she'd work with? Just recently, EB and Sharon BitchCase had a public battle and Eric just re-signed.

VR is not being asked back because she refuses to unblack her black character. That sista kept it real. Dru was great to watch because we could relate to her. She was somebody we knew. CK, I only remember really knowing one chick like her, and she was a self-hating twat as well. She married a white guy and told her sons that they were to tell anyone who asked that they were white. Never mind the thick curly hair and the darker skin. The vapid bitch was teaching them the wrong things, and hopefully, no one would ever ask anyone "are you black"?

I've been done with YR for quite some time, and the only thing that would bring me back is VR. I just have no use for that show anymore and only picked it back up because I lost my job last year and Jerry Springer was the only other option. YR edge out "I'm sleeping with my boyfriend's pet pig".

[VirginiaHamilton]

These arguments just sum up why VR has not been asked back. Difficult to work with? Bullchit! Again I ask, how many physical altercations has she had? Did she walk around dictating who she'd work with? Just recently, EB and Sharon BitchCase had a public battle and Eric just re-signed.

VR is not being asked back because she refuses to unblack her black character. That sista kept it real. Dru was great to watch because we could relate to her. She was somebody we knew. CK, I only remember really knowing one chick like her, and she was a self-hating twat as well. She married a white guy and told her sons that they were to tell anyone who asked that they were white. Never mind the thick curly hair and the darker skin. The vapid bitch was teaching them the wrong things, and hopefully, no one would ever ask anyone "are you black"?

I've been done with YR for quite some time, and the only thing that would bring me back is VR.

This, that, and then some. The fact that TIIC at Y&R chose to keep Christel 'I'd Rather Slit My Wrist Over Being Called Black' Khalil over the far more valuable, talented, and (yes) legendary Victoria Rowell (as well as Davetta Sherwood - a.k.a. the Real Lily Winters) speaks volumes - and pinpoints just why I haven't tuned back in to that show since Dru fell off that cliff.

[DramatistDreamer]

I wonder how long it will be before the fans of Christel a.k.a. Lane fans, who are currently crowing about her alleged recurring status, start complaining about her not being onscreen enough.

From what I've read, it seems many are trying to spin her being bumped to recurring (if this is the case) as a good thing, giving her time to pursue other interests. Weren't these the same people complaining about lack of screen time for Cane and Lily?? Granted I don't watch the show on a regular basis anymore but am I missing something?

I also wonder about this new guy who was originally thought to be a new love interest for Lily. The latest I heard was that now they're not sure who he'll be connected to. Does anyone think CK could've had a hand in this shifting status of the newcomer? Given the disturbing quotes that have been attributed to her, is it possible she wriggled out of this pairing? Would TPTB listen to her that much?

[SFK]

For the most part people seem to agree that behavior, speech patterns, etc. are emulated as there seems to be agreement that people are products of their environment. So if you stick a bunch of kids in an environment with people who speak a certain way and use a certain vocabulary and they have no or limited contact with others who differ then the kids will for the most part speak in the same manner (inflections), etc. just as the whole regional speech patterns occur. How do you end up concluding this is all racial (or apparently unique to black people) knowing that if you took black kids and placed them in homes where people didn't speak in this "black" way that those kids wouldn't not by "black skin osmosis" speak in that "black" way?

Oh gosh, not at all. Again, I'm not saying that ALL black people should speak a certain way. I'm just saying that many DO speak a certain way that you are less likely to hear on a soap. "Blaccent" has nothing to do with genetics, but it's important to remember that being black is about nature and nurture. Black is a color and black is a culture. My Puerto Rican friend's skin may be black, but she is Puerto Rican, black is not her culture. You could be black as the ace of spades, and you're black and you will always be black, but if you are raised by a white family with zero access to fellow blacks, yes, you are not in touch with certain cultural aspects of being black (outside of TV, God bless your soul, and aside from the looks I'd assume you'd get being the only black person in town ).

Black culture is another term I find useless. What's black culture when black people are all over the world and don't do the same things, eat the same things, etc.? Brazil has (I believe) the largest black population outside of the African continent. If any black people get to create "black culture" then it would come from outside of America where there are more black people and specifically from the continent of Africa where there are the most black people but all the African nations have their own specific culture so it's hardly likely that they will settle on one and label it as "black."

It's all in the context of the conversation. "Black culture" may sound like an incredibly broad term, but for the sake of this conversation, we're talking about black American culture in the U.S.A. born from the times of slavery. And with that comes their relationships with whites, religion, food, employment, opportunity, representation, et cetera.

[Money]

With Khalil on recurring, I hope they fire DG.

[xtr]

It's all in the context of the conversation. "Black culture" may sound like an incredibly broad term, but for the sake of this conversation, we're talking about black American culture in the U.S.A. born from the times of slavery. And with that comes their relationships with whites, religion, food, employment, opportunity, representation, et cetera.

I definitely think that is what most of us mean when we say "Black culture". We're talking about "Black American Culture", which I believe there is a such thing as. It can include all the things that you mentioned and also a general history about the lifestyles, behavior, traits etc... of a lot of Black American People. And also includes how Black people have evolved as people in America. I can't really speak for how "Black Culture" might be for Blacks in a lot of other parts of the world. But I can speak for what I know about "Black Culture" here in America, especially since I'm apart of that culture. (Though I do think it would be interesting to learn more about the cultures of other Black people from around the world.)

[SFK]

Exactly xtr, that's precisely what I meant. These conversations are always tough because there's an element of political correctness involved. I really hate to have to break down everything I'm trying to express in ultra specific "safe" statements, because I feel like there's this inherent element of "you know what I mean", but sometimes things I might say are mistaken for stereotyping or crude generalizations.

[juniorz1]

Khalil is the kind of actress JFP loves, Lily is the Jen Rappaport of Y&R :barf:

Really? Christel Khalil is the kind of actress JFP loves? NEWS FLASH: It wasn't Jen Rappaport that was front burner on JFP's OLTL. Bob Woods. Hillary B Smith. Catherine Hickland. Kale Browne. Kassie DePaiva. James DePaiva. Pat Elliot. Phil Carey. Mark Derwin. Erika Slezak. Roger Howarth.

Those are the actors that JFP favored on OLTL- the vets, many of whom were so far on the backburner they were barely on the stove before Jill's arrival (Hi HBS, Bob Woods, James DePaiva, and Pat Elliot).

I remember HBS even saying in an interview that Jill met with all the actors when she took over and Hilary was complaining about not having had a storyline in years. Jill told her she'd be her new best friend and thrust Nora and Bo back onto the front burner where they belonged. This is why many fans were not surprised that she contacted Jess Walton and brought her back to the fold. Because that is the kind of actress that JFP LOVES!!

Jill is gonna be the Nora Buchanan of Y&R!!

I love how people want to cite Jen Rappaport, when in fact that character debuted at the very end of JFP's OLTL tenure - it was Gary Tomlin who overexposed her, not JFP.

Exactly. It helps to hear from others who have actually seen JFP's work over the years and are not basing their "opinons" on what they've been able to assimilate in the 3 or so years they've been reading this board.

I'd LOVE it if someone actually ranted about Jill without using the following trite words: Rappaport, Maureen Bauer, Robin Strasser, Frankie Frame, FOJ

. With CK, I guess I am just tired of her not trying in any scenes (the cancer SL was a case in point). I am over it, and her, and I am ready for Y&R to look closely at the actors who really want the job and try and bring something to the material (no matter how poor) and those that don't.

OMG! The image of her smiling after looking at her bald(capped) head in the mirror- CRINGE!!

Insulting to any woman who has had cancer.

The funny thing is that she sold the other part of the story, where Lily still wants to have babies even though she'll die(!) if she does. Christel's Lily has the IQ of a Ritz cracker so I TOTALLY bought that the first thing she'd want to do after being diagnosed with Ovarian Cancer would be to get pregnant!