Downton Abbey: Discussion Thread

[EricMontreal22]

Disagreed (though 90s Merchant Ivory started to get a bit much, I agree there). Like Upstairs Downstairs--and Brideshead Revisited which this is kinda a mix of, the historical accuracy is everything. It's about how these kinds of feudal home systems completely died off--causing huge problems between 1910-1930, that's the very point. They've touched on how War affected them quite accurately actually--it's a time in history I know a fair amoutn about, surprisingly lol), although the combat scenes have been a bit meh.

It would lost at least 50% of its appeal to me if it didn't reflect in some way what was going on at the time, and became just a tamer, period version of Dynasty or something.

Edited October 14, 2011 by EricMontreal22

[DRW50]

I guess for me they can't reflect what's going on at the time. It's not possible, not with the format they have set up for mass public appeal. I'd like to see a period concept with something a little different. Similar to the brief glimpses of Victorian England on Torchwood and Doctor Who.

I'm not saying I want Downton Abbey to be like those shows, I'm just saying I think they would have been better off skipping things like WWI.

Edited October 14, 2011 by CarlD2

[Cat]

I love me some Merchant Ivory, LOL! I do think the MI films dealt with ambiguity and emotional complexity in a way we don't see in cinema anymore -- Howard's End is an example (I couldn't stand it the first time I say it but it took later viewings to realize that this was not A Room with a View and was not going to feature True Love and Fairy Tale endings).

I don't think WWI is the problem with Downton as it is the perfect lynchpin for the show -- a defining, apocalyptic era when attitudes towards class shifted and changed forever. And the final season of Blackadder proved perfectly that you do not need big budget battle theatrics to drive home the point about the horror of war. In fact, you can use humor, five characters and one studio to make it even more poignant. Downton + WWI work best when it is the little details like the blind soldier who killed himself, Thomas so scared that he risks having his hand shot through in order to escape the front, Edith having to write letters for convalescing, traumatised soldiers (did anybody ever see the movie Atonement, by the way? There is a great scene featuring a nurse and dying French soldier illustrating just that). On a personal level, it's not just about a generation of men wiped out but a generation of women who lost loved ones or would never be able to marry -- and some of those who decided to enter the workplace and espouse a life's vocation instead.

I will be interested to see if the 1919 Christmas special touches on the horrendous Spanish influenza epidemic which swept Europe at the end of WWI and ended up killing off another couple million of people.

[EricMontreal22]

I agree Cat about Downton Abbey--I actually think they do do a good job of showing to some extent how it affected women (and of course it did in a weird way give them, temporarily, more opportunities).

And I like Merchant Ivory to a point--I love most of their 80s stuff--I think Maurice actually improves on Forster's novel, Room With a View may seem overated but it's great--like Howard's End, etc--and like some of their later stuff (Golden Bowl is a flawed film, but they did an amazing job if you've read the James' novel which is close to impenetrable). But much of their later stuff is a bit style over substance I think--or even pretentious.

[EricMontreal22]

We'llhave to agree to disagree--which I'm not too used to doing with you Carl

I think without things like WWI being addressed, the show would be nothing. And actually probably, for good or ill, have far less mass appel as that aspect seems to be a big selling point.

[DRW50]

I enjoy their '80s material. After that it starts to become more about all sorts of somewhat vacuous suffering of the noble classes, in beautiful clothes. It's well acted and produced, I just like the '80s stuff more, since it includes a much more blatant attitude towards sexuality, nudity, and that helps make the constant turmoil more believable.

Edited October 15, 2011 by CarlD2

[EricMontreal22]

Yes it became much more... superficial or surfacy. I partly blame the source material they chose later--that had more mainstream material (in a way Room with a View, even with the male nudity, etc, was prob the start in that direction when it became such a breakthrough indie hit, and they started to view a certain audience they had--even if the less obviously mainstream Maurice followed it. In fact their 70s stuff, while not all that good much of the time, was all over the map style and subject matter). Like I said I did like Golden Bowl--it was the best possible movie out of such a interior novel, but it made no box office impact. Stuff like le Divorce is pretty awful I think. They did try to return to more sexual material with The White Countess but it's only a so so movie...

[Cat]

Basically, they ran out of EM Forster novels to adapt! And Jane Campion took over Portrait of a Lady so they were stuck in terms of the number of Henry James novels they could take on (BTW, I wanted to like Portrait of a Lady with Nicole Kidman SO MUCH but I just couldn't get into it. NK left me feeling cold. Like, I could see her trying to act. I wanted to see more Barbara Hershey). I guess MI did not want to get stuck doing late 19th/early 20th century period drama but I'm surprised they didn't try any Edith Wharton as that seems like it would have been a natural fit. Don't get me started on Le Divorce -- I'm half-French, and if I see one more movie where all the French women are amoral seductresses in couture and all the man have money to house a wife AND mistress, I will scream. Talk about cliche...

About Downton -- The Brits are big history buffs, especially when it comes to (a) the Tudors and ( b ) WWI and WW2. So I can see why Fellowes structured his show to hit the war at the end of the first season.

[dm.]

I watched the first episode yesterday because the show got such great reviews from my friends, and I was actually quite impressed. Will continue.

[Juliajms]

I've watched the first season and it is perfect soap. That first episode hooked me. I really thought the Lord was going to let Bates leave right at the end. The actor played it perfectly. At first you could see his conscious was bugging him, but he got this resolved look on his face as he walked away. I really thought they were going to give us an unhappy ending as a way of showing us how tenuous the lives of these servants really are, but then he came through.

The thing I love about this show is that the characters kept surprising me. Sure, there are some cliches, but many have been turned upside down as well. For example, for most of episode one, I was sure that Mary was a heartless bitch and Edith was the good sister. I figured that eventually Mathew would come to see that and Edith would be the one he went for. Totally predictable. But then when the Duke showed up and they were going through the servant's rooms Mary said she thought it was disrespectful. Then she apologized to Bates and said she always apologized when she was in the wrong. That's when you see she does have some character.

I also like that Cora is mostly a nice and compassionate woman, but she disapproves of Bates, even after he's been there for two years she makes unkind remarks. With the exception of Thomas, all of these characters have been richly drawn.

[EricMontreal22]

I hope you watched on DVD or download and not the PBS edit--which as discussed here, was minor but did ruin some pivotal stuff.

This season has been much more of a mixed bag--it's more full on soap I think, but I like that fine and overall was pleased with it. I can't see it going on for too much longer, but I think the post war episodes next year should be interesting. And that's a good point--many of the cliches HAVE been completely turned upside down which is why its so clever.

[Juliajms]

I did watch on DVD and I read the first page or so of this thread, but stopped before getting spoiled on season 2. I didn't see DA as complicated or hard to follow at all. I actually liked it that Mathew didn't show up until the very last scene of episode one. That way the audience could feel him as an intruder of sorts as well.

I love that cousin Violet is not evil. She's not some uber bitch. She's a woman of her times, a little bit afraid of all the changes around her. That line "I hanker for a simpler time, is that a crime?" , was very good. I think this is another area where they turned a cliche on it's head. Mrs. Crawly is sympathetic and makes many good points, but cousin Violet isn't wrong every time and she isn't usually mean just for the hell of it. I loved the way she gloated when she was right about the servant's (Mosley, maybe) hands. She was just so pleased with herself.

Also, I like that the family isn't completely against Mathew. They don't hate him irrationally or try to depose him through insane means. There is some snobbery, but it isn't really malicious for the most part. Even Mary seemed to hate him at first because she over heard him saying he didn't want one of the daughters pushed on him and not simply because of the money.

I can see where some people might think of the show as fluff, but I really don't. There is danger. Bates was nearly cast onto the street and might of ended up a beggar. Mary's position is quite tenuous. And yet this show isn't traumatic to watch and I actually appreciate that considering how many shows like that exist right now. I can only watch so many shows were people are being killed in gruesome ways.

I guess I won't see season 2 until it comes out on DVD. I missed it on PBS. Maybe that's for the best if they cut season 2 as well.

[Juliajms]

I just saw season 2 comes out February 7th, 2012. Well, at least that isn't a horribly long wait.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Juliajms

[EricMontreal22]

Season two hasn't aired on PBS yet--I believe it does in January. I suspect, since it was such a hit for them last year, they may leave it uncut this time--and I assume the upcoming Christmas special will be included.

[Juliajms]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/downtonabbey/

Thanks Eric. Looks like it starts January 8th.