5 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

The Dobsons just didn't care about the Hughes enough to fight to keep them the core..and you're right, they didn't know what to do with the show. I think the Dobsons second tenure was more successful because of Bunim..(not that she gave a crap about the core.) And thank you to whomever got rid of "horny" Brad..note to the Dobsons, your romantic hero should not be as scuzzy as your villain in the triangle. John had motivation...Brad was a scuzzy serve stalker!

From what I've seen of Brad, I never understood how the Dobson thought he was their romantic hero. To the historians in the thread, was Brad supposed to be ATWT's answer to GH's Luke? Or did Brad predate Luke? I am asking b/c all the soaps seemed to cast men around that time that had the Anthony Geary aesthetic. 

3 hours ago, Forever8 said:

It was so many other legacy characters waiting in the wings to be brought back in the 2000's but you know Goutman wasn't going to do that. 

Christina Hughes could've been mentored by her cousin Tom in the legal profession.

Imagine a rebellious teenage Hope Dixon turning up at Grandma Kim and Grandpa Bob's house, tiring of being "ignored" by Andy and Denise, who she had split her time with.

Not to mention, they could've at least brought two of the four Ward quads back. Imagine the Stewarts getting some representation. The male one could've been a love interest for Luke, while the female one could've been a mess like Cousin Emily was back in the day.

But nope, we get to watch Janet Cicone's backstory and half of Wendy Riche's General Hospital on canvas instead. 😓

I've said this before that many of the characters that weren't connected to the canvas (i.e., Henry, Janet, Vienna, Liberty, etc.) could've easily been cast as long standing characters in the show's rich history. I even felt that with many of the GH stunt castings too. I felt they stupidly squandered Wally Kurth, who has great chemistry with Maura. He could've easily been cast as Caleb or Scott (Lisa's son). Stuart Damon would've made the perfect Don recast. There were hundreds of characters to choose from the show's rich history that were practically blank canvases. 

1 hour ago, DeliaIrisFan said:

I would add the fall of 1985 to that.  I am going down a similar rabbit hole, mostly because I started rewatching what's available of the Doug Cummings story.  I certainly want to keep going in 1986 and at least the start of 1987, but I also would just as soon go back and soak up everything I can of Kim's stalker storyline.  Did CBS once re-air an episode from later in 11/85 (after Marie's murder - not Holden and Lily's first meeting and not the Halloween costumed party that stretched into early November) in the '90s/Aughts, or was it on YouTube and it got taken down?  I seem to remember seeing an intact episode at some point, but now I can't find it.

Yes to that. I want to see the episodes where Marie Kovac, Cal Randolph, and Dr. Strauss all got killed. If I am not mistaken, the episode from '85 where Marie's body was found was on YouTube. I don't know if it is still there or not. 

I think the problem with Brad Hollister - aside from the fact that they absolutely cast the wrong actor for that role - was that he was too gray in his motivations.  On paper and on-screen, Brad was supposed to be this opportunist who nevertheless had genuine feelings for Dee that, in time, would have redeemed him to the audience.  However, from what I've seen, it's not entirely believable that Brad isn't anything but an amoral creep.  IIRC, too, Brad finally bedded Dee, but sunk his chances with her for good when he admitted to why he had bought the silver mine that the Hugheses and Stewarts co-owned; then, he left town.  To me, that's pretty much an admission on the part of TPTB that Brad was a very limited character who'd run his course.

51 minutes ago, Khan said:

the silver mine that the Hugheses and Stewarts co-owned

The very idea that the Hughes family owned a silver mine (despite their history as firmly middle-class) is/was ridiculous.  Can you imagine Bill and Bert Bauer owning a silver mine? Joe and Ruth Martin owning a silver mine?  Jim and Mary Matthews owning a silver mine?  Mike and Nancy Karr owning a silver mine?   Seems to me, the Dobsons absolutely lost their minds when they became head-writers at ATWT.  This kind of crap might have worked on Santa Barbara, but not on ATWT.  Dear God in Heaven!!!

 

Edited November 6, 20232 yr by Neil Johnson

Apparently Chris Goutman didn't do #2.

3 minutes ago, Soapsuds said:

Apparently Chris Goutman didn't do #2.

Of all the EPs As the World Turns had in its final 25 years, go figure that Chris Goutman is the one that had the longest run (11 years).

3 hours ago, DeliaIrisFan said:

Did CBS once re-air an episode from later in 11/85 (after Marie's murder - not Holden and Lily's first meeting and not the Halloween costumed party that stretched into early November) in the '90s/Aughts, or was it on YouTube and it got taken down?  I seem to remember seeing an intact episode at some point, but now I can't find it.

I just remember them airing a Christmas '85 episode in the early-mid 2000s. It wasn't just a holiday episode, the plots were active. That was my first glimpse of Marland's ATWT, it was deep in the Doug story and it was fascinating. Holden, Lily, etc. were all present.

Edited November 6, 20232 yr by Vee

1 hour ago, Soapsuds said:

Apparently Chris Goutman didn't do #2.

 

Goutman and his team didn't do any of these rules hence why the show was a mess in its final years. 

3 hours ago, Khan said:

I think the problem with Brad Hollister - aside from the fact that they absolutely cast the wrong actor for that role - was that he was too gray in his motivations.  On paper and on-screen, Brad was supposed to be this opportunist who nevertheless had genuine feelings for Dee that, in time, would have redeemed him to the audience.  However, from what I've seen, it's not entirely believable that Brad isn't anything but an amoral creep.  IIRC, too, Brad finally bedded Dee, but sunk his chances with her for good when he admitted to why he had bought the silver mine that the Hugheses and Stewarts co-owned; then, he left town.  To me, that's pretty much an admission on the part of TPTB that Brad was a very limited character who'd run his course.

I do remember seeing the scene (on Youtube) where Dee came down in a and Brad was literally undressing her with her eyes. It was just weird. And for Dee to lust after him while being repulsed by John for doing the same stuff was weird too. 

2 hours ago, Neil Johnson said:

The very idea that the Hughes family owned a silver mine (despite their history as firmly middle-class) is/was ridiculous.  Can you imagine Bill and Bert Bauer owning a silver mine? Joe and Ruth Martin owning a silver mine?  Jim and Mary Matthews owning a silver mine?  Mike and Nancy Karr owning a silver mine?   Seems to me, the Dobsons absolutely lost their minds when they became head-writers at ATWT.  This kind of crap might have worked on Santa Barbara, but not on ATWT.  Dear God in Heaven!!!

Reading up, I never understood this story. Was the mine on their property? If so, I thought they all lived in suburban areas. I do think that the Dobson might've been testing a lot of their ideas used on SB on ATWT. 

3 hours ago, Neil Johnson said:

The very idea that the Hughes family owned a silver mine (despite their history as firmly middle-class) is/was ridiculous.

The initial story was that the Stewarts and Hughes owned adjoining land out of town.

Brad discovered that there was silver there and through his new friendship with Lisa, got the Hughes to sell them the land. He also needed the Stewart property and approached David and Ellen. David found out there was silver and decided to lease out his property to another company. Brad began mining the Hughes land and Joyce,Melinda and Jay got involved along with Brad having interactions with Annie, Dee, James and Don. So they were really setting him up as a central character.

Don't quite understand from synopses why Brad and the Stewarts had separate mining interests underway.

So was this land near the Stewart's cabin? Or was this just some retconned land to implant this story into? 

Was the Stewarts' cabin around in the story at that time?

It seemed reasonable enough that at some point the Hughes and Stewarts would invest in some land outside of Oakdale, w/o it being mentioned onscreen.

Perhaps the whole idea was that they knew at some point the value would increase and they could sell for a good profit, so when Brad came along they were interested.

Otherwise, unless you planned to build on it, what is the point of having land just sitting there not earning any income?

16 hours ago, DeliaIrisFan said:

I would add the fall of 1985 to that.  I am going down a similar rabbit hole, mostly because I started rewatching what's available of the Doug Cummings story.  I certainly want to keep going in 1986 and at least the start of 1987, but I also would just as soon go back and soak up everything I can of Kim's stalker storyline.  Did CBS once re-air an episode from later in 11/85 (after Marie's murder - not Holden and Lily's first meeting and not the Halloween costumed party that stretched into early November) in the '90s/Aughts, or was it on YouTube and it got taken down?  I seem to remember seeing an intact episode at some point, but now I can't find it.

The only Marland-era 1985 episodes that have been posted on YouTube are Oct 16, Nov 1, Nov 11, Dec 24 and Dec 31.  I've been downloading and collecting all Marland episodes for years and these 5 dates are the only 1985 episodes I've ever seen.  

On 11/5/2023 at 1:24 AM, DRW50 said:

Rosemary Prinz frequently did theater work - that may have been why Penny wasn't back. I am not sure if it was ever said. I am trying to remember if her absence was addressed (did they say Penny couldn't handle going to the funeral?).

 

On 11/5/2023 at 9:49 AM, NothinButAttitude said:

Oh, OK. that could've possibly been why she didn't film the other episodes. Makes sense. I think in the episode I posted, Kim said a throwaway line about Penny. I gotta go back and watch it. 

For me, the most memorable episodes surrounding the passage of patriarch Chris Hughes weren’t about the funeral itself but the episodes before (when the Hughes family and extended family and friends were learning about his passing) and the aftermath, after the funeral when we see how loved ones are dealing with the grief after the funeral service, which is often not something that many dramas would dramatize. It was likely done without Rosemary Prinz and Julianne Moore due to scheduling issues that probably couldn’t have been rearranged to cover what was an unforeseen event but I think the writing made it work as Frannie’s scenes with Casey in the vehicle (I too wondered why, there wasn’t a deeper exploration of a romantic relationship between Frannie and Casey- Marland had a better sense of how to pace stories than most but this was one of those that I think was too rushed, they should have lingered a bit longer).

Penny wailing “Mom!” and just repeating “Mom…Mom…” as she fell into Nancy Hughes’ arms will never not strike me in an emotional way. David Stewart embracing Bob with the gentle greeting of “Friend” was just so touching to me. There was a scene of Margo lovingly and sympathetically looking at Tom as he mulls over the fact that their unborn child will never get to know his great grandfather, Margo tries to soothe Tom by reminding him that, at least, they were able to give Chris the news that they had reconciled which she knew made him happy. 
Sometimes ATWT could be a little too subtle for its own good but this was a time when those small moments painted a poignant and realistic picture of what grief and its immediate aftermath tends to look like. 

Also, I think the missing episodes do a disservice to the continuity, particularly in years like 1986 and 1987, when there were so many stories, many of which overlapped and interlocked with one another.

Edited November 6, 20232 yr by DramatistDreamer

12 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Brad discovered that there was silver there and through his new friendship with Lisa, got the Hughes to sell them the land. He also needed the Stewart property and approached David and Ellen. David found out there was silver and decided to lease out his property to another company. Brad began mining the Hughes land and Joyce,Melinda and Jay got involved along with Brad having interactions with Annie, Dee, James and Don. So they were really setting him up as a central character.

Brad was skulking around the property (running tests) and met Annie who was sulking about some breakup.  Bob and Lisa knew him as his dad was friends of theirs ( a point quickly dropped) and Brad using his supposed charms got Lisa to push the Hughes to sell the land which then Brad announced that he found silver.  Then the Hughes were mad that Don was going to work for Brad..setting up a storyline but that was dropped. It jus was weird and the character never worked. I have no idea why they did not have James do all of those shenigans and just have Brad work for him.  They also started a storyline where David is flush with cash from the mine and buying things and Ellen is against it but that was dropped. 

I still don't get why Brad married Annie if he was always mopping about Dee. T

17 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

 

 

Reading up, I never understood this story. Was the mine on their property? If so, I thought they all lived in suburban areas. I do think that the Dobson might've been testing a lot of their ideas used on SB on ATWT. 

I didn't see this when it originally aired because I was still in school, but I have viewed it on YouTube, and it took place concurrently with the "Lisa at The Willows" plot. Chris Hughes was torn about selling the property because of sentimental attachments since it had belonged to his late father (Grandpa Hughes.) The family eventually agreed that since they weren't using this out-of-town land, and were unlikely to, that they should sell it (along with the mineral rights, LOL.)

4 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

Bob and Lisa knew him as his dad was friends of theirs (a point quickly dropped)

But you know, I liked the fact that the writers acknowledged off-screen relationships. It seemed realistic that other people existed in Oakdale even though we didn't see them. This way the Hollisters didn't seem like they came out of nowhere but were already in town waiting to be woven into the fabric of the show. Too bad it didn't work out in this case.