29 minutes ago, MarlandFan said:

I don't think Marland's final years were dark or ponderous at all.  Once the horrible Carolyn Crawford murder mystery finally(!) ended, the show improved. The Lily/Holden amnesia story, the reveal about Aaron's paternity, Scott's arrival, Lucinda's half-siblings, Susan and Larry's romance, the introduction of Damien Grimaldi were all great stories that injected both past history and future potential. If he had lived, Marland would definitely have tightened/fixed the Royce/Neal storyline and was also creating/preparing the Kasnoff family for a 1993/94 debut.  I do think that Marland may have become frustrated with the havoc that the OJ Simpson trial brought to soaps in 1995.  By that point, with the constant disruption of airings and the escalating cost of production, P&G may have become more "hands-on" and he might have quit.

That's true, but the murder mystery ended only a few months before Marland died.

I think those years were very dark, which isn't a criticism. I do think the ponderous nature would have been tightened up by the exits and story conclusions which were on deck in 1993, but much as I like 1991 and 1992 overall I feel like there were a lot of dead spots, especially with the younger cast and the general aimlessness due to stalling out the Carolyn plot. 

I don't think he would have been able to stomach what P&G would become by 1995 and 1996. Realistically he and Caso probably would have both been out in 1995.

25 minutes ago, wonderwoman1951 said:

expect he would have been frustrated, but marland died in march 1993.

Yes, we know.  We're surmising what he would have done if he had lived.

7 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

That's true, but the murder mystery ended only a few months before Marland died.

I think those years were very dark, which isn't a criticism. I do think the ponderous nature would have been tightened up by the exits and story conclusions which were on deck in 1993, but much as I like 1991 and 1992 overall I feel like there were a lot of dead spots, especially with the younger cast and the general aimlessness due to stalling out the Carolyn plot. 

I don't think he would have been able to stomach what P&G would become by 1995 and 1996. Realistically he and Caso probably would have both been out in 1995.

I do know what you mean by those years feeling very dark. I think some of that overall darkness may have been due to the shifting fashion trends in 92/93.  We went from bright pastels of 88 to 90 to the browns and muted earth tones of the early 90s.  And suddenly every woman seemed to sport that short bob haircut that became mega-popular. 

23 minutes ago, MarlandFan said:

I do know what you mean by those years feeling very dark. I think some of that overall darkness may have been due to the shifting fashion trends in 92/93.  We went from bright pastels of 88 to 90 to the browns and muted earth tones of the early 90s.  And suddenly every woman seemed to sport that short bob haircut that became mega-popular. 

That's true. The styles and general demeanor of the ATWT heroines of that period were a factor. Even Ellie, who was often in "comedy," had that darker undercurrent.

Speaking of this era, in honor of Liz Hubbard I did dive into those Walsh takeover episodes in addition to my existing binge (I'm still plugging away in the summer of '86). Really great work by Liz (and good support by Heather Rattray). I hadn't realized this is when she founded Worldwide. Her examining her life and some of her choices seems like it is the intro to going into her backstory with her mother and her siblings, unless I miss my guess - did that fully pan out, or was that a little later? Did John leave Lucinda over something with Cal Stricklyn or something else? They appear to be together here but on the rocks; I remember seeing their divorce in the Bahamas or wherever episode but I don't remember much else about it or when. I also know nothing about Linc Lafferty, though I've heard about James Wlcek before.

It is notable how many very physically similar yuppie white men the show has at this point. Many of them are hot, but still. I am always amused whenever yet another 'heir/spouse to a business fortune' turns up in Marland's work - the latest here appears to be Darryl Crawford inheriting the DeWitt fortune, just like Lily was a heiress, Quint on GL, Vanessa, I think Doug Cummings may have had family money, and soon there will be Rosanna Cabot. But hey, don't knock it if it works.

I did always like the throughline from Holden coming on as the sexually aggressive, somewhat scheming stablehand who's good at math and aspires to bigger things who later moves up in life (just like Meg) and becomes an executive. I don't think there was anything particularly interesting about the Holden I've seen after Marland left, but when he was there I always think there's a charge to the character in the stuff I've watched. Especially the ice in his veins businessman Holden who (whenever I see that iteration of the character) seems to have completely transformed himself, maybe because of that whole amnesia thing. But I'm only seeing snapshots so I really shouldn't talk. I don't know when he totally became a boring doughy suburban dad, but it was there by the late '90s.

Edited May 5, 20232 yr by Vee

Todd Rotondi is sharing powerful stories with Alan Locher. I hope everyone gets a chance to watch it.

 

40 minutes ago, mango said:

Todd Rotondi is sharing powerful stories with Alan Locher. I hope everyone gets a chance to watch it.

 

This is a GOOD one!! 

Kim popping up was pure soap shock moment. Did they hate each other? Talk about an opening cliffhanger!!

Todd spilling tea!! I'm sure he was talking about Goutman.

His crush on MBE.😂

His loving words about Liz.

Kim talking about Ben and CZP😉

Todd taking about Hunt Block.

Hunt sending Todd a message via the show.

Losing his father at 11. His mom illness after that.

Growing up by himself.

7 hours ago, Vee said:

Speaking of this era, in honor of Liz Hubbard I did dive into those Walsh takeover episodes in addition to my existing binge (I'm still plugging away in the summer of '86). Really great work by Liz (and good support by Heather Rattray). I hadn't realized this is when she founded Worldwide. Her examining her life and some of her choices seems like it is the intro to going into her backstory with her mother and her siblings, unless I miss my guess - did that fully pan out, or was that a little later? Did John leave Lucinda over something with Cal Stricklyn or something else? They appear to be together here but on the rocks; I remember seeing their divorce in the Bahamas or wherever episode but I don't remember much else about it or when. I also know nothing about Linc Lafferty, though I've heard about James Wlcek before.

It is notable how many very physically similar yuppie white men the show has at this point. Many of them are hot, but still. I am always amused whenever yet another 'heir/spouse to a business fortune' turns up in Marland's work - the latest here appears to be Darryl Crawford inheriting the DeWitt fortune, just like Lily was a heiress, Quint on GL, Vanessa, I think Doug Cummings may have had family money, and soon there will be Rosanna Cabot. But hey, don't knock it if it works.

I did always like the throughline from Holden coming on as the sexually aggressive, somewhat scheming stablehand who's good at math and aspires to bigger things who later moves up in life (just like Meg) and becomes an executive. I don't think there was anything particularly interesting about the Holden I've seen after Marland left, but when he was there I always think there's a charge to the character in the stuff I've watched. Especially the ice in his veins businessman Holden who (whenever I see that iteration of the character) seems to have completely transformed himself, maybe because of that whole amnesia thing. But I'm only seeing snapshots so I really shouldn't talk. I don't know when he totally became a boring doughy suburban dad, but it was there by the late '90s.

Doug had inherited his money from his dead wife, yes.

The colder Holden mostly sustains while Marland is alive. After Martha Byrne returns, the traces are still there, but there's more and more focus on him wanting to win Lily back and proving Damian is a criminal. There's also the story of him taking Aaron back from Iva, a story which angered me a great deal at the time, because a) I'm petty and I always thought Holden was a smug dullard while Iva was one of my favorites and b) he dumped Aaron off on Emma all the time to chase Lily and then to start dating a woman while pining for Lily. He spent more time caring for her son (who was deaf) than he did spending time with his son. There was finally a scene where Emma told him he was a deadbeat, essentially, and to raise his child. Not that long after this, Holden finally realized he needed to move on, and left Oakdale with Aaron. He was off the show for about two years, until early 1997, and when he came back (minus Aaron, who was taken in by Julie - bad writing as Julie was not capable of raising a child), he became the Holden you described.

The main reason John left Lucinda is because of her lies and control issues, some big ones involving his last long lost son, Duke (not sure how much detail you really want as I'm sure you will be watching them someday). He and Lucinda divorced in 1990 but he still remained close to her.

20 hours ago, Soapsuds said:

Todd spilling tea!! I'm sure he was talking about Goutman.

Issues with “authority” definitely read as Goutman, which is no shocker. He also mentioned not “feeling safe” (emotionally) in scenes with certain actors. Just seems like a toxic environment.

Does anyone have more details on this one?

1 hour ago, Faulkner said:

Issues with “authority” definitely read as Goutman, which is no shocker. He also mentioned not “feeling safe” (emotionally) in scenes with certain actors. Just seems like a toxic environment.

Totally different from Marland's 80s

 

Executive producer can make or break a set backstage.   I think Calhoun and Caso as EP's from the mid 80s to mid 90s seemed like a good working environment backstage.

All the performers hired during Caso's reign seemed to really love him..and how close/supportive the crew was.

Goutman was no Calhoun nor Caso..so I imagine backstage was not all that supportive.

And I'm wondering  if Kim and Todd were both caught up in the environment and it resulted in both of them not trusting one another.  It does seem like both have matured and moved on from the industry.

1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

 

And I'm wondering  if Kim and Todd were both caught up in the environment and it resulted in both of them not trusting one another.  It does seem like both have matured and moved on from the industry.

Some who watched felt tension between the two. Kim did look great. She did some growing up. She wouldn't have surprised Todd had she not matured. 

Todd had a rough life growing up. He mentioned turning to drug, booze and sex after his time on ATWT.  He still looks great.

 

 

Kim Onasch does look wonderful. I remember a lot of stories about her BITD.

It was obvious the Goutman years were toxic on the set because even Annie Parisee didn't have nice things to say about her time on ATWT.

23 hours ago, DRW50 said:

The colder Holden mostly sustains while Marland is alive. After Martha Byrne returns, the traces are still there, but there's more and more focus on him wanting to win Lily back and proving Damian is a criminal. There's also the story of him taking Aaron back from Iva, a story which angered me a great deal at the time, because a) I'm petty and I always thought Holden was a smug dullard while Iva was one of my favorites and b) he dumped Aaron off on Emma all the time to chase Lily and then to start dating a woman while pining for Lily. He spent more time caring for her son (who was deaf) than he did spending time with his son. There was finally a scene where Emma told him he was a deadbeat, essentially, and to raise his child. Not that long after this, Holden finally realized he needed to move on, and left Oakdale with Aaron. He was off the show for about two years, until early 1997, and when he came back (minus Aaron, who was taken in by Julie - bad writing as Julie was not capable of raising a child), he became the Holden you described.

The main reason John left Lucinda is because of her lies and control issues, some big ones involving his last long lost son, Duke (not sure how much detail you really want as I'm sure you will be watching them someday). He and Lucinda divorced in 1990 but he still remained close to her.

I really hated Holden as a character there from 1993-1995 always acting like a smug and pompous jerk during that time period. One of the main reasons why I preferred Damian and Lily as the better couple versus another reunion of Holden and Lily. I too felt Holden’s attitude towards Iva was unnecessarily cruel. Thankfully all those annoying Holden pop-up visits came to an end with Holden being off screen for a couple years and the character was reset upon return.
 

Aaron being with Julie was bad writing as well given everything that happened with Julie, Pete, and Jenny. It also gave way to the atrocious off-screen writing given to Julie in the 2000’s, first of Julie being a raging alcoholic groupie or something and then later of Julie being terminally ill. 
 

I recall right the main reasons for John and Lucinda’s divorce were the whole Duke situation, Lucinda’s lack of support for John during Andy’s alcoholism and jealousy of the time John spent with Kim, and ultimately John having an affair with Susan out of spite.