One thing about early Bert that I find fascinating & didn't realize until I started digging into the radio & early TV synopses is that Bert came from a somewhat well off family & "married down" by marrying Bill & constantly pressured Bill into improving their social standing (you can hear this in the radio eps available with Bert pressuring Bill into moving into a new apartment & how she testified against Meta for Ted in order to protect Bill's position at the agency.  I also didn't realize that Bert's meddlesome mother once came to stay with her & Bill and provided no end of criticism & meddling, especially regarding the rearing of the kids.

3 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

I was no fan of Jean Passanante, but I will acknowledge that she did pay some attention to the vets towards the end of the series. More than Sheffer did. Even Lisa (!!!) got a few lines here and there!

Meh. She didn't do as good as I'd expect a head writer to do though. It still boggles my mind how reduced the vets became by the mid 90s to the end. I'd kill to write for a Kim, Lisa, Bob, or Lucinda over some newbie any day. Maybe that's because I like to dig and research back history. 

 

That aside, do you have idea why did they kill Paul Stewart off? I feel like that was a dumb choice and quite premature. I do think though that it was smart and realistic to have him never find out that Dan parented Betsy with Liz. I feel like that was a true nod to reality where we don't always get everything wrapped up so nicely. 

 

5 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

 

That aside, do you have idea why did they kill Paul Stewart off? I feel like that was a dumb choice and quite premature. I do think though that it was smart and realistic to have him never find out that Dan parented Betsy with Liz. I feel like that was a true nod to reality where we don't always get everything wrapped up so nicely. 

 

They could have done it just to get Dan and Liz together as Paul's only real storyline on the show was the Dan-Liz-Paul triangle. Although, Liz had her infamous, fatal fall the day after her wedding to Dan so they didn't stay together too long. But Paul was always a minor character. He always played second fiddle to Dan's story and he was away in Vietnam a lot of the time. They probably just thought he outlived his usefulness. He was never fully fleshed-out as a character or given much to do. 

5 hours ago, Matt said:

One thing about early Bert that I find fascinating & didn't realize until I started digging into the radio & early TV synopses is that Bert came from a somewhat well off family & "married down" by marrying Bill & constantly pressured Bill into improving their social standing (you can hear this in the radio eps available with Bert pressuring Bill into moving into a new apartment & how she testified against Meta for Ted in order to protect Bill's position at the agency.  I also didn't realize that Bert's meddlesome mother once came to stay with her & Bill and provided no end of criticism & meddling, especially regarding the rearing of the kids.

Elsie was also always pressuring Bert to divorce Bill. Even taking her to see her lawyer once and having Bert file divorce papers because Bill was an alcoholic. Which she withdrew when she decided to go back to Selby Flats and give Bill a chance. Elsie hated Bill. Of course, I'm sure a lot of people thought Bert should have divorced Bill but I actually thought the opposite. I thought Bill should have divorced Bert. LOL. Especially in the younger years. In the latter years, Bert turned out to be an anchor for Bill instead of the irritant she was in the younger years. I thought Bill was a fascinating character. He seemed to always be doing the wrong things but those things came out of him trying to do the right thing and denying himself. He married Bert and stayed with her because it was expected when he should have been with a woman like Gloria and, probably, later, Maggie. He worked at jobs he hated when he really wanted to be in the military and travel but felt like he had to be domestic. That's why he could never keep a job and drank so much. He was unhappy in his life but never felt like he could do what would have made him happy because he was trying to do "the right thing". Very misunderstood character. Sorry. This is an ATWT thread and I've spent too much time deconstructing Bill Bauer. I just find the character very interesting. Everybody talks about women being constrained back then because of social expectations but men were too to some degree. 

Edited March 4, 20241 yr by Reverend Ruthledge

44 minutes ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

They could have done it just to get Dan and Liz together as Paul's only real storyline on the show was the Dan-Liz-Paul triangle. Although, Liz had her infamous, fatal fall the day after her wedding to Dan so they didn't stay together too long. But Paul was always a minor character. He always played second fiddle to Dan's story and he was away in Vietnam a lot of the time. They probably just thought he outlived his usefulness. He was never fully fleshed-out as a character or given much to do. 

Wait?! Liz died the day after marrying Dan?! That is crazy. I bet the fandom was livid about that. 

2 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

Wait?! Liz died the day after marrying Dan?! That is crazy. I bet the fandom was livid about that. 

Well, her accident was the day after marrying Dan. She hovered between life and death for a month or so before finally kicking the bucket. 

4 hours ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

They could have done it just to get Dan and Liz together as Paul's only real storyline on the show was the Dan-Liz-Paul triangle. Although, Liz had her infamous, fatal fall the day after her wedding to Dan so they didn't stay together too long. But Paul was always a minor character. He always played second fiddle to Dan's story and he was away in Vietnam a lot of the time. They probably just thought he outlived his usefulness. He was never fully fleshed-out as a character or given much to do. 

Elsie was also always pressuring Bert to divorce Bill. Even taking her to see her lawyer once and having Bert file divorce papers because Bill was an alcoholic. Which she withdrew when she decided to go back to Selby Flats and give Bill a chance. Elsie hated Bill. Of course, I'm sure a lot of people thought Bert should have divorced Bill but I actually thought the opposite. I thought Bill should have divorced Bert. LOL. Especially in the younger years. In the latter years, Bert turned out to be an anchor for Bill instead of the irritant she was in the younger years. I thought Bill was a fascinating character. He seemed to always be doing the wrong things but those things came out of him trying to do the right thing and denying himself. He married Bert because it was expected when he should have been with a woman like Gloria and, probably, later, Maggie. He worked at jobs he hated when he really wanted to be in the military and travel but felt like he had to be domestic. That's why he could never keep a job and drank so much. He was unhappy in his life but never felt like he could do what would have made him happy because he was trying to do "the right thing". Very misunderstood character. Sorry. This is an ATWT thread and I've spent too much time deconstructing Bill Bauer. I just find the character very interesting. Everybody talks about women being constrained back then because of social expectations but men were too to some degree. 

This was so insightful, thanks for the info about Bill and Bert's earlier stories on GL. Much appreciated and fills in some blanks. 

15 minutes ago, MichaelGL said:

This was so insightful, thanks for the info about Bill and Bert's earlier stories on GL. Much appreciated and fills in some blanks. 

You're welcome. I have a wealth of trivia in my brain and always happy to share it with anyone who might care.  

1 hour ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

Well, her accident was the day after marrying Dan. She hovered between life and death for a month or so before finally kicking the bucket. 

Again, that had to suck for the fandom who probably pined for those two to be together only to instantly lose the pairing. 

Did the actress want to leave the role? I know that people have said was rumored that Irna was not a fan of the actress. Is this true?

1 hour ago, NothinButAttitude said:

Again, that had to suck for the fandom who probably pined for those two to be together only to instantly lose the pairing. 

Did the actress want to leave the role? I know that people have said was rumored that Irna was not a fan of the actress. Is this true?

Vetsoapfan may be able to answer that. He's very knowledgeable on the backstage drama of soaps. 

Paul Stewart was an underdevoped character and recast a few times but really he could have just left town and be brought back down the line. Having Liz and Paul both die within months was a bit gruesome.

The oft repeated claim that Irna came back and made a lot of changes does not really hold up. Irna returned Jan 72 and Liz  was killed off in Feb 73 so she played that story for a year. 

One other thought I had is why the decision was made to give David and Ellen two daughters rather than another son. I guess they wanted to keep Dan as the only son Ellen had to intensify that story. 

3 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

Again, that had to suck for the fandom who probably pined for those two to be together only to instantly lose the pairing. 

Did the actress want to leave the role? I know that people have said was rumored that Irna was not a fan of the actress. Is this true?

That was the first Liz, Jane House. I wonder how fans felt about the replacement actress. 

9 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

Meh. She didn't do as good as I'd expect a head writer to do though. It still boggles my mind how reduced the vets became by the mid 90s to the end. I'd kill to write for a Kim, Lisa, Bob, or Lucinda over some newbie any day. Maybe that's because I like to dig and research back history. 

I hope you did not think that I was in any way, shape, or form praising Passanante's work. EEEK!😬 I generally found her material to be tepid and uninspired. That being said, Sheffer's obvious preference not to write for the vets was both insulting and infuriating. JP's throwing them occasional bones made me consider her work "less bad," if only by comparison.

9 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

That aside, do you have idea why did they kill Paul Stewart off? I feel like that was a dumb choice and quite premature. I do think though that it was smart and realistic to have him never find out that Dan parented Betsy with Liz. I feel like that was a true nod to reality where we don't always get everything wrapped up so nicely. 

@Reverend Ruthledge explained the situation quite well in his reply.

Irna Phillips was wont to make sweeping changes and clean house when she felt like it. She had made up her mind a while before to kill off Liz Stewart, and I've always felt that (finally being able to do so), the writer wanted to put the character and the storylines surrounding Liz to rest. Paul had never been a major character anyway. (Even so, I was perturbed by Ellen's colorless reaction to hearing about his death. She gave a vaguely troubled speech about how these things happen, and that we all must just...move on. It was oddly underplayed.)🤔

9 hours ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

...I thought Bill should have divorced Bert. LOL. Especially in the younger years. In the latter years, Bert turned out to be an anchor for Bill instead of the irritant she was in the younger years. I thought Bill was a fascinating character. He seemed to always be doing the wrong things but those things came out of him trying to do the right thing and denying himself. He married Bert and stayed with her because it was expected when he should have been with a woman like Gloria and, probably, later, Maggie. He worked at jobs he hated when he really wanted to be in the military and travel but felt like he had to be domestic. That's why he could never keep a job and drank so much. He was unhappy in his life but never felt like he could do what would have made him happy because he was trying to do "the right thing". Very misunderstood character. Sorry. This is an ATWT thread and I've spent too much time deconstructing Bill Bauer. I just find the character very interesting. Everybody talks about women being constrained back then because of social expectations but men were too to some degree. 

Bravo! You summarized the situation and Bill Bauer's character so beautifully and succinctly. So much was left unsaid and undone for him in the end. Watching Pamela Long and Gail Kobe kill him off in 1983, to serve a heinously-stupid and pointless plot, was infuriating. So much family drama could have been mined from Bill Bauer's working on his demons, hashing out his relationship with Ed, and slowly mellowing into a sadder-but-wiser, repentant patriarchal figure. 

8 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

Wait?! Liz died the day after marrying Dan?! That is crazy. I bet the fandom was livid about that. 

You have nooooo idea, LOL! It took a while for the character to succumb to her injuries, but when she did, the audience was infuriated and made their feelings known. Even with a replacement actress in the role, viewers made it clear that they could learn to accept a "new" Liz over time, but not NO LIZ AT ALL.

(It's curious how viewers accept some replacements, but staunchly refuse to accept others. When ATWT attempted replacing Rosemary Prinz with Phoebe Dorin, viewers revolted, and the "new Penny" was shown the door less than a year after being introduced. I did not want to deal with a replacement Penny, but to be fair, Dorin had a resemblance to Prinz and seemed to be a decent actress.)

5 hours ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

You're welcome. I have a wealth of trivia in my brain and always happy to share it with anyone who might care.  

I can vouch for the breadth of your historical knowledge, and I daresay that the majority of SONers want you to share more!👍

5 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

Again, that had to suck for the fandom who probably pined for those two to be together only to instantly lose the pairing. 

100%, yes.

5 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

Did the actress want to leave the role? I know that people have said was rumored that Irna was not a fan of the actress. Is this true?

The original actress, Jane House, had wanted to leave the show, but the replacement (Judith McGilligan) was fired.

4 hours ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

Vetsoapfan may be able to answer that. He's very knowledgeable on the backstage drama of soaps. 

Thank you, but more likely, I have a big mouth and just like chatting, LOL!

 

14 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Bravo! You summarized the situation and Bill Bauer's character so beautifully and succinctly. So much was left unsaid and undone for him in the end. Watching Pamela Long and Gail Kobe kill him off in 1983, to serve a heinously-stupid and pointless plot, was infuriating. So much family drama could have been mined from Bill Bauer's working on his demons, hashing out his relationship with Ed, and slowly mellowing into a sadder-but-wiser, repentant patriarchal figure. 

 

 

 

Bill Bauer was one of my favorite GL characters (if not my favorite) and I'm a huge Bill apologist but I didn't so much mind that the killed him off. In fact, I'm not a big fan of his "return from the dead" and wish they would have just left him dead in the plane crash in 1969. His return in 1977 at least gave us Hilary but it was so poorly handled. He was brought back to basically not do anything and just fade away. I don't think main characters should just fade away. I'd much rather have them die. So, a death for Bill would be preferable in my opinion then just not ever mentioning him again. HOWEVER, NOT the way he was killed. For the sake of a very stupid storyline that didn't make sense to begin with. For such a long-lasting, important character to die for the sake of a lame, revisionist, nonsensical storyline featuring people who would only last a couple of years (hello, Annabelle) was just a slap in the face to the character and GL's legacy.

30 minutes ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

 

Bill Bauer was one of my favorite GL characters (if not my favorite) and I'm a huge Bill apologist but I didn't so much mind that the killed him off. In fact, I'm not a big fan of his "return from the dead" and wish they would have just left him dead in the plane crash in 1969. His return in 1977 at least gave us Hilary but it was so poorly handled. He was brought back to basically not do anything and just fade away. I don't think main characters should just fade away. I'd much rather have them die. So, a death for Bill would be preferable in my opinion then just not ever mentioning him again. HOWEVER, NOT the way he was killed. For the sake of a very stupid storyline that didn't make sense to begin with. For such a long-lasting, important character to die for the sake of a lame, revisionist, nonsensical storyline featuring people who would only last a couple of years (hello, Annabelle) was just a slap in the face to the character and GL's legacy.

When TPTB initially brought Bill Bauer back from the dead, I was hoping they would use him effectively and mine all the potentially-explosive family drama inherent in the situation. I was so disappointed that he just faded into the woodwork without any fanfare. Being such an historically-significant character with rich interpersonal-relationship possibilities, I kept hoping (dreaming in Technicolor, really🙄) that an intelligent writer would care about the integrity of TGL's past and the Bauer family enough to DO something worthwhile with this.

Alas, we got Pamela Long and Gail Kobe, the annihilation of the Bauers, and an egregious, idiotic storyline that saw Bill end up dead, and the history of TGL's core families trashed.

2 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

I hope you did not think that I was in any way, shape, or form praising Passanante's work. EEEK!😬 I generally found her material to be tepid and uninspired. That being said, Sheffer's obvious preference not to write for the vets was both insulting and infuriating. JP's throwing them occasional bones made me consider her work "less bad," if only by comparison.

@Reverend Ruthledge explained the situation quite well in his reply.

Irna Phillips was wont to make sweeping changes and clean house when she felt like it. She had made up her mind a while before to kill off Liz Stewart, and I've always felt that (finally being able to do so), the writer wanted to put the character and the storylines surrounding Liz to rest. Paul had never been a major character anyway. (Even so, I was perturbed by Ellen's colorless reaction to hearing about his death. She gave a vaguely troubled speech about how these things happen, and that we all must just...move on. It was oddly underplayed.)🤔

You have nooooo idea, LOL! It took a while for the character to succumb to her injuries, but when she did, the audience was infuriated and made their feelings known. Even with a replacement actress in the role, viewers made it clear that they could learn to accept a "new" Liz over time, but not NO LIZ AT ALL.

(It's curious how viewers accept some replacements, but staunchly refuse to accept others. When ATWT attempted replacing Rosemary Prinz with Phoebe Dorin, viewers revolted, and the "new Penny" was shown the door less than a year after being introduced. I did not want to deal with a replacement Penny, but to be fair, Dorin had a resemblance to Prinz and seemed to be a decent actress.)

No, I didn't think you were commending JP at all! I just felt she was no better than Sheffer. But at the end of the day, it could be all because Goutman didn't want to display the vets. 

I am not stunned to hear that fans didn't take to Penny at all. Even my late grandmother, when she used to go on and on about the show, would talk about how she loved Jeff and Penny and how much of a big deal they were. Some characters are just hard to recast--literally untouchable. 

4 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Paul Stewart was an underdevoped character and recast a few times but really he could have just left town and be brought back down the line. Having Liz and Paul both die within months was a bit gruesome.

The oft repeated claim that Irna came back and made a lot of changes does not really hold up. Irna returned Jan 72 and Liz  was killed off in Feb 73 so she played that story for a year. 

One other thought I had is why the decision was made to give David and Ellen two daughters rather than another son. I guess they wanted to keep Dan as the only son Ellen had to intensify that story. 

I guess. But I think once Paul found out the truth of Dan/Liz, that would've provided tons of drama going forward. But I mean it worked out for the show in the long haul. I do think they tried to rectify it in later years by Stewart his son.