I guess I see the decision to bring BM in as Billy Abbott as more of a cheat than an attempt to focus on a core family. They can basically write this character any way they want, and then hide behind his last name, even though they have no real interest in him with his family, or in Billy's past history. I'd rather they just create a new character if they're going to treat Billy as a new character. I feel like the Abbotts are basically gone anyway. I feel like Billy and Ashley dislike or ignore most of his family unless they have no choice in the matter. Traci is gone, Jack is painted as the family burden, and there's really no one else.

Pretty much.

TPTB have massacred the character to fit BM when it should be the other way around.

Every time I see Sharon and Billy interact, I think of their drunk love scene when Billy tied a tie around his head à la Rambo and Sharon started pirouetting around the room like a ballerina in her underwear.

Every time I see Sharon and Billy interact, I think of their drunk love scene when Billy tied a tie around his head à la Rambo and Sharon started pirouetting around the room like a ballerina in her underwear.

That about sums up their relationship.

That scene really summed up Sharon's character in the minds of the showrunners. We're supposed to pity her, yet also see her as a piece of tail. It was very uncomfortable to watch, as it sort of made a joke out of the whole claim that this was about mental illness. The show seems to just get a kick out of exploiting her character.

That about sums up their relationship.

That's what I mean. Their scene yesterday was kind of... off, and I don't know whether that was an acting or a directing choice. Billy was gurning and gnashing and throwing zingers at Sharon to impress her but Sharon (or SC) just wasn't buying it. Like, when BM does that stuff with, say, Eileen Davidson or Liz Hendricksen, they pick up on it and play with it. Case barely acknowledged it. I'm not saying she was rolling her eyes at the Millerisms but... almost!

And I like Miller (I usually like the hams -- Pelphrey, too) but, as with Tom Pelphrey, he sometimes needs to dial it down a notch.

That scene really summed up Sharon's character in the minds of the showrunners. We're supposed to pity her, yet also see her as a piece of tail. It was very uncomfortable to watch, as it sort of made a joke out of the whole claim that this was about mental illness. The show seems to just get a kick out of exploiting her character.

And Billy pressuring her into sex while she was under so much mental duress was horrible.

Case barely acknowledged it.

And yet she DID acknowledge Muhney's tics.

See, I know some of you have reservations about the actors...but from a "family connection" angle, from a "history" angle, and (for me) even from an "actor" angle, I have absolutely no problem with this.

If there would be a way to weave Chance into this, we'd have axes of alliance and conflict between next-generation Chancellors, Abbotts, and Newmans. Adam vs. Nick (since they decided not to go the 'happy family' route) could be quite cool.

It is clear that they have decided to focus on next-generation males rather than females...and that I do believe is probably a Sheffer influence.

These shows do need to extend their base to push into the next generation. I consider this a completely viable -- even organic -- way of doing this. I'm definitely prepared to relax my preconceptions on this.

Heck, I was anti-Emily...but so far she is winning me over too. The lesson to me is to try not to judge, but to see how it plays out. For example, I assumed Kevin confronting his demons would be excellent--but that was a "wrong" prejudgement in the opposite direction--the chipmunk sucked.

I am so far enjoying this healthier, more stable Sharon...and I'm eager to see the choices she makes. It makes perfect sense that she might have ties to both Adam and Billy...and it makes perfect sense that both of those might infuriate Nick.

I think I'd almost like to see Nick realize that the Phyllis-Jack attraction is not totally dead either. (When will Patty reveal to Nick that his wife shagged Jack?). That might make Nick realize that he can't take anything for granted...he has to fight for what he wants in life.

Please don't bash me for expressing optimism and hope and story potential. I'm not naively saying it will happen...I'm saying it could happen...I hope it happens.

They've regressed the characters and I guess a general soap rule that is especially applied on y&r is the characters don't grow unless it complies with the big plot line. Even when Summer's life was compromised I didn't feel the fight from Nick, Phyllis showed it the most. The thing is Nick mostly always took his "loved" ones for granted. The charater is very selfishly motivated his "convictions" are usually very self righteously based (i.e. selling out his father to the Feds). The character rarely let enouggh of himself go to fully appreciate those he has claimed to love until he feels he starts to lose his "co-dependent" grip on them. The Cassie's accident/ Cassie's death storyline is the most progressive the character has ever been in this sense because instead of justifying his self-righteous actions by his perception of a world's view, he started to grow a bit more because now he questioned decisions he made based on how it will affect his loved ones. But even then as he progressed he regressed because he still made bad decisions (with different motives, yet still selfish) that tore apart his family. I type all this to say I don't believe finding out about Phack's lay or roll in the hay is going to suddenly hmble Nick Newman. He took Sharon and his children for granted from the beginning (conflict over Cassie, not wanting Noah, cheating etcetcetc.), he selfishly tore apart his family after the accident. He betrayed his current wife Phyllis many times (sleeping with Sharon, choosing Sharon, abandoning their family), he didn't show as much fight for Summer taking her situation (abit it seems) for granted, it would be very out of character if a ROLL in the Hay between Jack and Phyllis is what brings on the epiphany.

And Billy pressuring her into sex while she was under so much mental duress was horrible.

The whole thing was just ugly, as we were supposed to believe Sharon was mentally ill, losing her mind, and yet we had Jack telling her he'd never loved her more as he had sex with her, knowing how far gone she was, and we had Nick repeatedly having sex with her even as he knew how far she'd gone downhill. It just invites viewers to see mental illness as some silly little thing women have and not really worth fussing over. I know I complain about Ashley's mental illness stories but at least Victor or Brad or anyone else never crawled in bed with her while she was having breakdowns.

Edited October 27, 200916 yr by CarlD2

Pretty much.

TPTB have massacred the character to fit BM when it should be the other way around.

I agree, the thing is BM proably just need to direction to bring that but as has already been pointed out Bill is a tool for these writers to write this "rogue" to their own seeming vision, so apprently nothing is being done about his compromised character. At least having Adam on canvas doesn't make it as bad as we've witnessed it can be in the case of Billy

The whole thing was just ugly, as we were supposed to believe Sharon was mentally ill, losing her mind, and yet we had Jack telling her he'd never loved her more as he had sex with her, knowing how far gone she was, and we had Nick repeatedly having sex with her even as he knew how far she'd gone downhill. It just invites viewers to see mental illness as some silly little thing women have and not really worth fussing over. I know I complain about Ashley's mental illness stories but at least Victor or Brad or anyone else never crawled in bed with her while she was having breakdowns.

This is interesting to me because besides the Klepto thing, I didn't necessarily see the difference between Billy and Sharon why was Sharon the one called crazy? What was/is her diagnosis? This are the questions I would have for TPTB

Incredible...they now have Ashley speaking for their entire female audience, and putting Victor in his place. This seems a sure sign that the tide has turned, and TPTB understand the objections to last few months.

Thank God, though, that Victor remains smart. His incredulity that her madness would have passed "after a few sessions" is spot on! Today has really reaffirmed my sense that the writers have reclaimed their understanding of several of these characters! I loved how both Braeden and Davidson brought on the moist eyes..V: "You seem tense", A: "Because you're here...The only way you can make me happy is to leave". Wow!

===

I know Adrienne Frantz doesn't get a lot of love around SON, but today again she showed why she is the best younger actress on the show. She brings energy and a perspective. There is nothing wishy washy about her. She holds her own in scenes with Stafford and Bregman. She finds the comedic subtext. She is a solid, capable performer.

Ah, but the return of the Ouija board! I could hear some of you howling over the internet! So, this is the kind of story I like...a little mystery, a little humor (Scooby-Dooby-Doo, where are you?). I cannot lie. So what is with the recurring "DEAD" messages? At first I thought it was spelling "Deacon". No matter...they have my interest piqued with all this mystery surrounding Ryder and now the Ouija Board. I can't help myself. But I have loved Ouija stories since a board predicted Mary Kennicott Martin's (Susan Blanchard's) death (which young Tad Martin witnessed) on AMC decades ago.

===

We see my beloved Newman set again. The hallway! With adjoining rooms! It doesn't have the cameras-on-tracks of the LML days, but still there was scope and movement. Another sure sign that the writers have listened a little...this is a return to "business".

I am also delighted to see yet another Michael-Adam confrontation. I truly belive that this may be the "money rivalry", even though I personally see value in Adam-Nick-Billy-Chance mixing it up in a next-generation scuffle.

Just as they are smartening other characters, I like to see that Adam is playing this smart too. He points the finger at a company assistant...which is plausible, and consistent with his pattern. Alas, any chances of a "good Adam" remain dashed...but at least they are remaining consistent to this particular vision of Adam.

I'm trying to figure out how Victor trust Michael "implicitly". I realize this relationship evolved over the years, but am I the only one who remembers how much Victor HATED Michael during the "Diane Jenkins divorce" days?

I get that Deacon is being injected all over the place...but I still find him to be a delightful rascal. He is pure slime, but he somehow retains an attractive core. I loved him making his low-talking moves on Victoria...watching her be bowed by his words...and watching JT spy it all. Maybe that punch was over-staged, but it was still a long-time coming. If Sheffer gives men their 'balls back', it sure was nice to see JT reclaim his for a bit.

"Dude talk" of the day: "I don't even want to know WHY JT socked that dude!"

===

I liked that they showed us Ryder's banging lithe bod for a second. This is PROOF that they plan for him to stick around...they're even trying to build a fanbase. They don't show characters we're supposed to hate shirtless. I think it is also meaningful that JANA saw him that way. I think that shows us a bit of the direction this is headed...maybe Jana feigning attraction to get under his skin, but then finding some connection with the 'rascal' in him. After all, she was once a 'rascal' too, and that was the initial basis of her attraction to Kevin. Plus she still has that 1% of tumor left in her brain...and she DID have headaches during the chipmunk saga.

Although, I guess this Ryder thing could be a trick. Years ago, when Dereck raped Christine, they first showed him as a traditional teen romantic lead...handsome, well dressed (I forget if we saw his body). And then they TRICKED us by turning him into an angry rapist. Which was a very, very effective way of teaching us about acquaintance rape. I suppose they could be deceiving us with Ryder, using some "good guy/soap hunk" conceits...only to pull the rug out from under us later. There is enough physical similarity between Ryder and JT, I'd be pretty worried if I were Mr. Luckinbill...esp. if Ryder is the new "it boy". (Ryder was a late addition...he tested for Chance, and they liked him a lot. After Chance went to Driscoll, they created this role for Wilson Bethel).

But that was a clever way to re-use Kevin's set for a second episode...have Lauren "host" a dinner at Kevin's place. Will Gloria and Jeff be there too? I've missed a Munster-mash.

===

I am left with the continued impression that this is a show in repair mode...a show that has heard many of the kinds of criticisms we have made here on SON. Most will not believe that this is a sincere redirection -- not even me -- because trust has been damaged. But more than anything these last weeks, I really felt this was a transitional, foundational show that signalled that things are on the right track.

Incredible...they now have Ashley speaking for their entire female audience, and putting Victor in his place. This seems a sure sign that the tide has turned, and TPTB understand the objections to last few months.

Really? I thought they were trying to show us how disturbed Ashley is. I was actually shocked when she said, "I'm fine now because I had the baby." That's a huge cry for help. Everything about her seems off-kilter to me, from her unkempt hair, to her garish, slightly smudged lipstick, to her somewhat disoriented ranting at Victor, even her wardrobe, which today involved a skirt that was a cross between a Scotch tape dispenser and a kilt.

I also noticed that she still seemed to have a pull towards Victor, even as she asked him to stay away. It's like she was asking him to stay away so she could continue her delusions. Then in tomorrow's episode, she goes to rail at Billy for blaspheming Victor.

I liked that they showed us Ryder's banging lithe bod for a second. This is PROOF that they plan for him to stick around...they're even trying to build a fanbase. They don't show characters we're supposed to hate shirtless. I think it is also meaningful that JANA saw him that way. I think that shows us a bit of the direction this is headed...maybe Jana feigning attraction to get under his skin, but then finding some connection with the 'rascal' in him. After all, she was once a 'rascal' too, and that was the initial basis of her attraction to Kevin. Plus she still has that 1% of tumor left in her brain...and she DID have headaches during the chipmunk saga.

Although, I guess this Ryder thing could be a trick. Years ago, when Dereck raped Christine, they first showed him as a traditional teen romantic lead...handsome, well dressed (I forget if we saw his body). And then they TRICKED us by turning him into an angry rapist. Which was a very, very effective way of teaching us about acquaintance rape. I suppose they could be deceiving us with Ryder, using some "good guy/soap hunk" conceits...only to pull the rug out from under us later. There is enough physical similarity between Ryder and JT, I'd be pretty worried if I were Mr. Luckinbill...esp. if Ryder is the new "it boy". (Ryder was a late addition...he tested for Chance, and they liked him a lot. After Chance went to Driscoll, they created this role for Wilson Bethel).

I don't see that much physical similarity between Ryder and JT, besides being lean. JT looks good to me, he looks like this is his natural shape, whereas Ryder looks very malnourished and pouty, and that hair, which looks like he is on his way to a Spandau Ballet reunion, also makes him look a bit ridiculous. If they do think that they can just dump JT for yet another vacuous, ice cold Fisher-Baldwin relation who is involved in all sorts of crimes and never shows remorse for them, then the show continues to be tone deaf and will have more unpopular new characters. They haven't given any reason to care about Ryder. Casting these hard-faced, scrawny men and passing in role after role just blurs things together.

I'm really going to be annoyed if they use Ryder as an excuse to write JT out. Just when JT is showing again how much he can bring to the show, that he can have some intensity. All I see with Ryder is a blank space.

I am also delighted to see yet another Michael-Adam confrontation.

I do like their confrontation, but why does Muhney need to spit the words out when he's with Michael? What's the rush?

I get that Deacon is being injected all over the place...but I still find him to be a delightful rascal.

I just don't really get why he's involved in some of these stories. I do like Sean Kanan, I always have, but I had to laugh as he waltzed into a major stockholder meeting and his glowing speech alone was supposed to help Newman. Why? And were we supposed to laugh when Nick said, "Don't bring up my father's health problems" to the other stockholders. How are you not going to bring up the CEO of your company being shot by one of his employees and getting a heart transplant from a board member? If anything that should make Nick want to bring it up, as they might get scared Victor will take their kidneys or spleens or livers if they don't fall into line.

I'm glad to see business again, although I think Nick would be better off in another setting, and Adam is just too offputting (I wish they could do something about the big forehead at least). This is where a stronger Victoria would have been key.

Amelia's current hair color is flattering for her, if only she'd take better care of it.

Edited October 27, 200916 yr by CarlD2

whereas Ryder looks very malnourished and pouty, and that hair, which looks like he is on his way to a Spandau Ballet reunion.

:lol: :lol:

I'm glad to see business again, although I think Nick would be better off in another setting,

I'll never forget the scene where Colleen supposedly made her board meeting debut and everyonne had their basic professional tools and Nick's looked lost and bored like "Oh we were suppose to bring pens and papers?". Lmao I agree fully.

Besides TPTB. JM, BM, MM, among others need to get it together if they are going to be leading these new stories. They each have better potential than what they have consistently shown

I know Adrienne Frantz doesn't get a lot of love around SON, but today again she showed why she is the best younger actress on the show. She brings energy and a perspective. There is nothing wishy washy about her. She holds her own in scenes with Stafford and Bregman. She finds the comedic subtext. She is a solid, capable performer.

Sometimes I think she's overrated as an actress, but honestly the thing that bothers me is her voice that would make Alvin, Simon, and Theodore say "damn that's squeaky!". I did like how she delivered the "it's a yes or no question" line.

I get that Deacon is being injected all over the place...but I still find him to be a delightful rascal. He is pure slime, but he somehow retains an attractive core. I loved him making his low-talking moves on Victoria...watching her be bowed by his words...and watching JT spy it all. Maybe that punch was over-staged, but it was still a long-time coming. If Sheffer gives men their 'balls back', it sure was nice to see JT reclaim his for a bit.

"Dude talk" of the day: "I don't even want to know WHY JT socked that dude!"

I like JT punching Deacon, but I hope they don't go too far and turn him into what Carl likes to call a typical Sheffer alpha male. I wonder if Joshua Morrow ad libs the dudes or are they actually written in the script.

I liked that they showed us Ryder's banging lithe bod for a second. This is PROOF that they plan for him to stick around...they're even trying to build a fanbase. They don't show characters we're supposed to hate shirtless. I think it is also meaningful that JANA saw him that way. I think that shows us a bit of the direction this is headed...maybe Jana feigning attraction to get under his skin, but then finding some connection with the 'rascal' in him. After all, she was once a 'rascal' too, and that was the initial basis of her attraction to Kevin. Plus she still has that 1% of tumor left in her brain...and she DID have headaches during the chipmunk saga.

I thought that the rumors about Eden may turn out to be about Jana instead of her.

Although, I guess this Ryder thing could be a trick. Years ago, when Dereck raped Christine, they first showed him as a traditional teen romantic lead...handsome, well dressed (I forget if we saw his body). And then they TRICKED us by turning him into an angry rapist. Which was a very, very effective way of teaching us about acquaintance rape. I suppose they could be deceiving us with Ryder, using some "good guy/soap hunk" conceits...only to pull the rug out from under us later. There is enough physical similarity between Ryder and JT, I'd be pretty worried if I were Mr. Luckinbill...esp. if Ryder is the new "it boy". (Ryder was a late addition...he tested for Chance, and they liked him a lot. After Chance went to Driscoll, they created this role for Wilson Bethel).

I hate it when shows create a role just because they like the actor, even though I do like Wilson (that's how GH fans got stuck with Ethan and I also read that Aiden Devane was created the same way on AMC). They did him no favors having him be associated with the Fishers and Deacon.

I never saw any resemblence between Ryder and JT. If there is a resemblence Ryder has with JT it's the JT of the Glo by Jabot years, before Thad Luckinbill reached puberty at the age of 32.

Edited October 27, 200916 yr by lovely_m

Incredible...they now have Ashley speaking for their entire female audience, and putting Victor in his place. This seems a sure sign that the tide has turned, and TPTB understand the objections to last few months.

Thank God, though, that Victor remains smart. His incredulity that her madness would have passed "after a few sessions" is spot on! Today has really reaffirmed my sense that the writers have reclaimed their understanding of several of these characters! I loved how both Braeden and Davidson brought on the moist eyes..V: "You seem tense", A: "Because you're here...The only way you can make me happy is to leave". Wow!

Really? I thought they were trying to show us how disturbed Ashley is. I was actually shocked when she said, "I'm fine now because I had the baby." That's a huge cry for help. Everything about her seems off-kilter to me, from her unkempt hair, to her garish, slightly smudged lipstick, to her somewhat disoriented ranting at Victor, even her wardrobe, which today involved a skirt that was a cross between a Scotch tape dispenser and a kilt.

I also noticed that she still seemed to have a pull towards Victor, even as she asked him to stay away. It's like she was asking him to stay away so she could continue her delusions. Then in tomorrow's episode, she goes to rail at Billy for blaspheming Victor.

MarkH: It's about time Victor acknowledged that there was/is something wrong with Ashley and that she'd had "a few sessions". I guess we'll have to wait a few more years before he finds out Adam's role in all this.

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CarlD2: Amen- ICAM