GL now joins some illustrious company in the cancelled soap thread.

Let's share memories and ask questions here.

1 hour ago, Khan said:

 

I remember (vaguely) rumors about Gus being Alan and Rita's son.  Thank GOD they never went THERE.  (Although, making him the product of Alan's affair with some random nun was just as bad.)

 

That would have been better if Gus was Alan and Rita's son...or at the very least Rita's son...cause that would have solved what happened to Rita (she vanished and was never was found).

 

I didnt get the point of Buzz and Lillian being together other than both characters were single and the writers didnt know what to do with them so put them together.  By the time they were paired...Beth and Harley no longer despised each other..Harley was gone and Beth was involved in Alan's orbit.  I did like that Hawk/Lillian would still flirt with Hawk saying if Buzz didnt treat her right, that he would be available all she had to do was let him know.  I recall Hawk/Lillian was a nice little coupling in the darker 1986/7 period during Pam Long's absence as head writer..but I noticed once she returned in fall of 1987, she introduced Sarah..and within a few months broke up Hawk/Lillian to reunite him with Sarah.

 

Pam long and Wheeler...hmmmm...I never thought about that..but I could have seen it working...except both of them on their own would go overboard with their passion/ideas...and both needed a counterbalance to reign them in.  (Long had calhoun and Curlee in the late 80s....and I think Lorie Hurst helped bring Wheelers ideas to life in a soap manner..making it more realistic, etc).

On 8/6/2018 at 10:55 PM, Khan said:

For Marj, I would have created the character of Miss Martha's sister, and Billy, Josh and Trish's aunt.  I might have even named her "Mary," since Martha seems like such a biblical name to me.

 

In 1985, Miss Martha's sister referred to as "Lady Magpie" Sayre appeared briefly. She was played by soap vet Dagne Crane. Just a bit of trivia I thought of when I read your post.

55 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

I didnt get the point of Buzz and Lillian being together other than both characters were single and the writers didnt know what to do with them so put them together.  By the time they were paired...Beth and Harley no longer despised each other..Harley was gone and Beth was involved in Alan's orbit.  I did like that Hawk/Lillian would still flirt with Hawk saying if Buzz didnt treat her right, that he would be available all she had to do was let him know.  I recall Hawk/Lillian was a nice little coupling in the darker 1986/7 period during Pam Long's absence as head writer..but I noticed once she returned in fall of 1987, she introduced Sarah..and within a few months broke up Hawk/Lillian to reunite him with Sarah.

Yes but, those final Lillian scenes were amazing.  When she talked about giving up her life to please Bradly and then paying penitence for Maureen it was gold.  For my experience, having a character express themselves in that way can only come after watching them for years. So, it may have been more a device to get Lillian to grow than to give Buzz a happy ending. 

2 hours ago, Darn said:

 

 

"Perhaps you didn't hear Joseph, I'm not receiving tonight which means please leave!"

 

My god, what a scene! They are both fabulous here. It's so well written.

 

Amazing, thank you. 

 

That entire arc of a conversation is jaw dropping to watch, and not just because of Reva's mullet.  When she waves away the butler I was in stitches.  I adored the association of Dylan and Lujack, in that it was totally soapy that two woman would have long lost children and discuss it as if it were totally normal.

 

Shark tank idea - somebody has got to adapt those old fancy landline phones for the iphone.  Also, I could watch a loop of soap women pulling off their earrings to talk on the phone; love that move.

I loved Marj...but she was HORRIBLE as Alex...they should have never recast. However, she had a couple of good scenes for her..right when she was replacing Joan Collins and they were still writing for Joan/Alex she was good, (my favorite..when Reva jumps on her for setting up the stalking, Marj rolls her eyes and with a wave of her arm dismisses it.. but soon she was screeching and eating the scenery..so it makes me think that yes, it was the writing that sucked. Also the scene in the Spaulding attic when she confronting FauxAnnie..she had great lines..my faves..which Marj did perfect..."It makes me one to throw up all over your new face!" and the best ...something like "Ya got a nice bark on ya honey... but I have dealt with far worse then you!"  Marj was miscast and could have been a great tough ball breaker who climbed out of poverty, married rich, inherited stock in Spaulding and was a continuous thorn in Alan and the Lewises side.

10 hours ago, Darn said:

 

"Perhaps you didn't hear Joseph, I'm not receiving tonight which means please leave!"

 

My god, what a scene! They are both fabulous here. It's so well written. Which creative team was this? And is that Alexandra's house or the Spaulding mansion? It actually looks...large and not the one library set their used for the last 10 years.

 

Even simply things like Alexandra acknowledging the generational differences between herself and Reva (when she talks about how you can't drink or smoke while pregnant now) adds so much to the characters. Now people on soaps are ALL in the general age range of 25-40. You can have Jack on Y&R talking about the same concerns as someone 40 years younger than him. It's so stupid.

 

Today's Miss Beverlee's birthday.

On 8/9/2018 at 10:17 AM, Darn said:

 

"Perhaps you didn't hear Joseph, I'm not receiving tonight which means please leave!"

 

My god, what a scene! They are both fabulous here. It's so well written. Which creative team was this? And is that Alexandra's house or the Spaulding mansion? It actually looks...large and not the one library set their used for the last 10 years.

 

Even simply things like Alexandra acknowledging the generational differences between herself and Reva (when she talks about how you can't drink or smoke while pregnant now) adds so much to the characters. Now people on soaps are ALL in the general age range of 25-40. You can have Jack on Y&R talking about the same concerns as someone 40 years younger than him. It's so stupid.

 

I love this scene when Alexandra/Reva were frenemies... and there was a conversation about class, generational changes, etc.  

 

It really hits home Beverlee's point that Alexandra lost a lot of depth in the last year or so of playing the character.  I think part of that had to do with Jill Phelps as EP.. but I truly think it also had to do with the creator of the character (Pam Long) no longer being there.  Reva/Alexandra were written best when she was there...imho.  I do wonder how Long would have help write Alexandra after she found out about Mindy/Roger?  I know Curlee takes credit for the Mindy/Roger affair.. but I have to wonder if Long would have influenced how the character was written post the affair.

2 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

I love this scene when Alexandra/Reva were frenemies... and there was a conversation about class, generational changes, etc.  

 

It really hits home Beverlee's point that Alexandra lost a lot of depth in the last year or so of playing the character.  I think part of that had to do with Jill Phelps as EP.. but I truly think it also had to do with the creator of the character (Pam Long) no longer being there.  Reva/Alexandra were written best when she was there...imho. 

 

Upon reflection I have one tiny quibble with this scene. 

 

Reva came to Springfield with a personal maid (and a truckload of turbans), she also grew up in a home with a staff, yet she seems intimidated by the formality of Joseph the butler.  I know Reva was becoming domesticated (with a brief foray into royalty) but, she knew how to utilize household help so her interaction with Joseph seems out of character. 

13 hours ago, j swift said:

Upon reflection I have one tiny quibble with this scene. 

 

Reva came to Springfield with a personal maid (and a truckload of turbans), she also grew up in a home with a staff, yet she seems intimidated by the formality of Joseph the butler.  I know Reva was becoming domesticated (with a brief foray into royalty) but, she knew how to utilize household help so her interaction with Joseph seems out of character. 

I loved it when Reva first came to town and was full of fire and great comic timing..we hadnt seen that since Nola...and then they had to do the angst and drama stuff...But Reva and her maid were more buddies then Alex and her staff...she was like Mae West and her maids..."Beulah peel me a grape!" I would have loved Reva to stay wild and conniving and give her a Thelma Ritter type maid as she schemes.

 

The scene above with Alex and Reva was weird that it transitions right into them having a chat. Is there a scene missing?

 

I do think that Long wrote Reva and Alex best...like Marland write Nola best...but I think that Curlee was right there writing with Long so she "got" Alex. I think it was Phelps who wanted to turn her into a bitter old bitch all the time...but it was still better then what Conboy and whats her face did to poor Alex and then Wheeler and Kriezman. I just wish they had never written her back in then destroy her the way they did.

 

 

This is Beverlee McKinsey's last episode... and it's interesting that Nick brings up the parallel's between Brandon Spaulding keeping Eric/Alexandra apart.. and Alexandra keeping Nick/Mindy apart.

 

From watching the show as an adult, I think Alexandra was totally justified in making Mindy's life miserable.  Mindy was an adult, willingly entered into a long term affair with Alexandra's husband, and was trying to get Roger to leave Alexandra for her... even making snide remarks about her.  So I actually am on Alexandra's side in keeping Nick/Mindy apart because Mindy broke up her marriage and switched the paternity results..  and yet the whole town expected Alexandra to forgive and forget?  I don't think so..  It is interesting that when Mindy/Nick did get married later on.. and Alexandra finally backed off.. the two broke up anyway... but it had been a few years since the affair/paternity test switch had happened so Alexandra had cooled down some by than.

I watched the episode from the day before Thanksgiving 1977 on YouTube last night. And I have some questions.

 

It seems as if Alan and Elizabeth have just been introduced with young Philip. How does Jackie know the Spauldings? It seems obvious she's Philip's mother though that is being kept a secret at this point. But how did the Spauldings come to stay with her temporarily so she could be close to her son?

 

Also I am assuming that when Jackie was introduced she had already been divorced from Justin (though they would remarry later). I do remember Alan and Elizabeth divorced, which allowed Jackie to marry Alan for awhile to be mother to her son.

 

What is the time line here? I would think Philip was born in the mid or late 60s. When did Jackie and Justin divorce? When did Alan and Elizabeth divorce? Did Elizabeth marry Mike? I seem to remember her being very close to Mike Bauer.

 

The 1977 episode I watched last night shows Justin rekindling an old romance with Sara, with him wanting to marry her. But I don't recall them ever marrying. Did Justin have any wives in between his two marriages to Jackie?

 

And how many different husbands did Sara have?

Sara had four husbands.  Lee Gantry, Joe Werner, Dean Blackford, and Adam Thorpe.

1 hour ago, JarrodMFiresofLove said:

The 1977 episode I watched last night shows Justin rekindling an old romance with Sara, with him wanting to marry her. But I don't recall them ever marrying. Did Justin have any wives in between his two marriages to Jackie?

The backstory is that Justin dated Sara while they were in med school, but then he left her for Jackie, whose family was well connected.

 

Justin & Jackie met Alan & Elizabeth in Europe when both women were pregnant and had the same doctor (who later becomes a part of the story, even through Diane Ballard's murder).  Justin and Jackie came to Springfield (many Europeans chose Springfield for the first place they settled in the 70's) when Justin worked at Ceder's.  Then Alan and Elizabeth come to town.   Justin and Jackie split first, then the couples change partners because Elizabeth really likes Mike but Phillip doesn't like him so she settles for Justin. 

 

I think the sequence of people knowing about Phillip's parentage/switching is Alan (because he set it up in the first place), then Justin (he treated Phillip's hysterical heart problems), then Jackie, and finally Elizabeth.  Spoiler alert: Jackie &Justin reunite then she dies in plane crash, Elizabeth gets institutionalized, like all 1970's women who were too liberated, at his high school prom Phillip finds out from Beth's abusive father Bradley that he is adopted, Alan and Justin confirm it, then Justin leaves town.  So, they got seven years of stories out of Phillip's switch and the resulting butterfly effects; and then never mentioned it again....

Edited August 20, 20187 yr by j swift

2 hours ago, j swift said:

The backstory is that Justin dated Sara while they were in med school, but then he left her for Jackie, whose family was well connected.

 

Justin & Jackie met Alan & Elizabeth in Europe when both women were pregnant and had the same doctor (who later becomes a part of the story, even through Diane Ballard's murder).  Justin and Jackie came to Springfield (many Europeans chose Springfield for the first place they settled in the 70's) when Justin worked at Ceder's.  Then Alan and Elizabeth come to town.   Justin and Jackie split first, then the couples change partners because Elizabeth really likes Mike but Phillip doesn't like him so she settles for Justin. 

 

I think the sequence of people knowing about Phillip's parentage/switching is Alan (because he set it up in the first place), then Justin (he treated Phillip's hysterical heart problems), then Jackie, and finally Elizabeth.  Spoiler alert: Jackie &Justin reunite then she dies in plane crash, Elizabeth gets institutionalized, like all 1970's women who were too liberated, at his high school prom Phillip finds out from Beth's abusive father Bradley that he is adopted, Alan and Justin confirm it, then Justin leaves town.  So, they got seven years of stories out of Phillip's switch and the resulting butterfly effects; and then never mentioned it again....

 

Thanks. I was born in the early 70s, so the first storylines I remember watching as a kid were probably from 1978 or 1979, when Jackie was married to Alan; and when Roger raped Holly. So this earlier stuff is kind of interesting to see.

 

I certainly remember when Jackie and Justin reunited, though there was a recast by that point in the role of Jackie. And I also recall them having another child, daughter Samantha who came back to Springfield in the late 80s or early 90s but was kind of nerdy.

 

What I love about this earlier stuff by the Dobsons is how they built these romantic entanglements around the Bauer brothers. Around Mike we have-- Elizabeth, Jackie, Justin, Alan, Sara (and later Hope when she becomes involved with Alan). Around Ed we have--- Holly, Rita, Roger, Peggy, then Alan when he has an affair with Rita behind Hope's back. In addition there is this stuff going on with Holly's mother and Roger's father; plus Bert and Bill with Bill's other family. It's really quite complex and multi-layered.

 

I love how deceptively simple the scenes are. The pre-Thanksgiving episode had Justin and Sara making an apple pie in her kitchen, but the way they talk about all this other stuff and how interwoven it is-- I found it to be very masterful writing, very absorbing. Another thing I notice the Dobsons do, since I looked at another one of their 1977 episodes is right after the opening logo, they start with a long five to seven minute scene. Just the one scene, no commercial break. So you really get drawn into what's happening, because the lengthy scene without any cuts feels like real people with real conversation. Then after the first commercial, the scenes start to get shorter, and they build, with a certain kind of rhythm. It just flies by, because with all these interwoven conflicts, all these layers of relationship drama, you get sucked into it and don't even watch the clock.

 

Another thing the Dobsons were good at, and Marland was too, is they have the characters kind of gossip. Like Bert Bauer is this pillar of the community but out of concern or compassion for others, she talks about this one and talks about that one. So you get caught up on the other stories through Bert's kind-hearted gossip. I really love that kind of writing, because it's how people are in real life.

 

And I enjoy how spacious the sets are. Jackie's home with those large windows and spiffy fireplace...the wide hallways at Cedars with the wonderful blue walls...the lounge at Cedars where Bert and Justin talk...Sara's kitchen...there's just so much space for them to move around. These feel like real rooms, not studio sets. Procter & Gamble put a lot of care into this show in the late 70s, probably because they wanted the hour-long format to be a success.

 

Just watching these two episodes from 1977 took me back to the Springfield I remember from watching the show as a kid. In the 80s, I think things got too chaotic, too many new characters and families were added. But back in the late 70s, they kept it pretty basic. It's easy to see why the ratings were strong and there was a resurgence of interest when the Dobsons were in charge. It's a shame the show had become so far removed from this basic premise during the Ellen Wheeler years in the 2000s. Guiding Light didn't really have to end. It just needed to get back to basics.

 

3 hours ago, slick jones said:

Sara had four husbands.  Lee Gantry, Joe Werner, Dean Blackford, and Adam Thorpe.

 

Thanks. Procter & Gamble partnered with some publishing company in the late 80s/early 90s. I remember being inside a Woolworth's department store in Chicago in early 1990 and there were paperback books that retold some of the early storylines. One book I picked up was about Sara's marriage to Lee, which if I remember correctly from the back cover of the book, he was a villain.

Edited August 21, 20187 yr by JarrodMFiresofLove

1 hour ago, JarrodMFiresofLove said:

Just watching these two episodes from 1977 took me back to the Springfield I remember from watching the show as a kid. In the 80s, I think things got too chaotic, too many new characters and families were added. But back in the late 70s, they kept it pretty basic.

Agreed, I like that it is aspirational without being flashy.  They all have careers, dinner parties, and nice homes, without being princes, or super villains.  It seems like it is always trying to be a heightened reflection of the culture at the time.  Even the discussions of family planning seem so much more evolved that the baby crazy women portrayed on soaps today.  Jackie isn't trying to ensnare Alan in order to mother Phillip, she is pragmatic that Phillip was close to his father and marrying him was a good way to join the family; also Alan was unusually magnetic when he wanted to turn on his charm.    

 

Jackie and Justin were so groovy it is hard to believe what a wet sock Samantha turned out to be, but her casting was an excellent use of history given the SORAS-ing of Alan-Michael.