Guiding Light discussion thread

[Mitch]

 

You are on the only person on earth besides me who liked Brent/Marion..I never got why people got so upset with his changing the HIV test results...I thought that was a good twist on the boring pregnancy switch. I also loved the "Today the part of Marion is being played by....Brent Lawrence" metaness of that scene and my favorite line...murderer Brent annoyed..."You think I'm a LESBIAN??"

 

I could have handled Fletch outside of romance...when he was everybody's buddy and was supporting. Hammer actually had nice, "friendly" chemistry with many of the women on the show..I loved it (tho the show sucked at that time)when he and Reva were buddies.) I think he and O'Leary and Dicipolous did best in that kind of role (sorry, I never thought feathered hair Frank had much sexual chemistry with anyone..) 

 

And yes, if it came down to Fletch or Buzz getting the axe...Buzz would have been the one floating in the SF river for months.

 

 

[zanereed]

Like @Mitch, I wasn't a great fan of Fletcher, either

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. I did like him in the very beginning when he was introduced, but as 1984 progressed he seemed like he was in every storyline in some capacity. I also agree that he never really clicked with any of the women they tried to pair him with. I think on a friend basis, Fletcher and Hillary clicked. I would have loved for them to have eventually become partners in a PI firm in Springfield - Fletcher shifting focus from reporter to PI, and Hillary abandoning her nursing career to do something completely off the beaten path (against her family's wishes). I think Marsha Clark could have pulled this off.

 

As @vetsoapfan states, Brandon Spaulding definitely died on screen in 1979 (September or October?). For those who have the German TGL DVD set which has November and December 1979 episodes, the David Thomas version of Brandon Spaulding appears in a dream sequence that Lucille has in one of the November episodes included in the set. It may even be up on YT at this point?

 

And like @Soaplovers, my personal favorite era of TGL was the Dobson era, exactly for the reasons written in their post above. The interesting thing about this TGL thread is that it made me reevaluate the Marland era - I didn't care for it as much as I thought I did. Marland's era was "cold and depressed" for the most part, which is why I don't think Marland could have written for Rita, or could have ever come up with a character like Reva.

 

@j swift - I would have never paired Bill again with Bert. In fact, if Bill were to have been given some sort of redemption storyline, it should be just as you stated - Bert forgives Bill, but she doesn't forget. The divorce sticks. In fact, I wish the Dobsons would have just paired Bert with Steve Jackson after the "Bill is back from the dead" story imploded.

[j swift]

Its instructive to think that at the end of series Reva was 8 years younger than Bert was when she died.  Yet, Bert was written like an old lady from the early 70's onward.

 

Perhaps one of the variables that we miss when critiquing the arc/aging of a character is how much the actor's vanity prevents the telling of those stories?  Certainly, KZ's memoir revealed that she went kicking and screaming into "age appropriate" stories, and the articles about the actor who played Mike seem similar.  It has got to be an enormous stab in the ego to age on television (in HD) when one became famous for their youth and beauty.  Especially in daytime where there is so much emphasis on body image.  It is no wonder that there is a long list of actors who went nuts because of that reason.

 

@Mitch I agree, I admire the guts of a writer in the early 90's to play on the fear of HIV.  To be fair, given the times, there were plenty of PSA moments about how Lucy and Alan-Michael could still be "intimate" and have children.  The intention was clear that they were avoiding being homophobic or transphobic; even though it wasn't a term at the time.  By comparison, GH's jokey use of drag when Mac and Kevin went undercover or AW's Cass/Krystal Lake stories would seem much more inappropriate today. 

 

Also, what soap fan doesn't love a plotline that also has backstage drama attached?  When I read that a plotline had so stressed out an actor that they needed to take a leave of absence; I was glued to the soap and the magazines.  I still wonder how much of it was a publicity stunt versus the reality; given that we've never really heard of Frank Beaty in the past twenty-two years...

 

 

[vetsoapfan]

 

 

I think that Long eventually evolved into a good writer, but some of her initial choices for TGL should have been vetoed (like the supernatural/sci-fi nonsense). In an interview years after the fact, she confessed that she had finally realized the fantasy stuff did not work and it was "better to get real." Many of her interpersonal-relationship scenes were quite poignant. She wrote Bert well. She wrote the Phillip and Rick relationship beautifully. (I, and Michael O'Leary, suspected Rick was subconsciously in love with Phillip, but Long pooh-poohed that idea.) If she had had a strong producer who knew what she was doing and who understood the show (Gail Kobe did not fit the bill), Long's more annoying, failed plots might not have seen the light of day, and her better, human drama might have taken center stage and been her primary legacy. Her second stint at headwriter, under Calhoun, was significantly better than the first. I credit the producer with a solid part of that. 

 

I agree that the Dobsons were better at TGL than Marland was, but ironically, Marland was better at ATWT than the Dobsons were. Different writers just click better on certain shows, I guess. Pat Falken Smith's scripts for TGL were excellent, and I was thrilled when she initially took over for Marland. She seemed to possess the best of the Dobsons' and the best of Marland's style. It was a major disappointment when she was so suddenly replaced. The writing deteriorated significantly and remained  problematic for years afterwards.

 

 

I'd like to know that too. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by vetsoapfan

[JarrodMFiresofLove]

 

No it's the other way around. Jeff Ryder is the one who named her Bert Bauer Ramsey, and they had Claire call the baby B.B. Pam Long was on maternity leave. When she came back she changed the name to Michelle. There was some interview where she said the name was changed to reflect the baby being named after its uncle (Mike). Also they wanted the child to have the Bauer name, and B.B. Bauer (Bert Bauer Bauer) was redundant.

[vetsoapfan]

 

I thought Frank Beaty was attractive and charismatic in an absurd and over-the-top role. It's too bad he got saddled with this part. I would have preferred him on the show long-term, over many other actors we got stuck with.

 

I don't think Dicopolous had much sexual heat with anyone on-screen either, but speaking as someone who has the heart of a 'ho, he looked very sexy in that tight blue T-shirt he wore in the 1980s. Woof!

 

I could have tolerated Fletcher in small doses as a supporting-buddy kind of character, but that loud-mouthed, screaming, belligerent Buzz  just HAD TO GO. I also prayed every night for the extermination of Richard, Jeffery (they brought him back...aaaaack!), Crassie, all the Santoses, faux Beth, and many others. On the other hand, by the time the show actually died, there were so many characters hanging around who were actively BORING and pointless, I just yawned my way through many episodes. (Peapack did not help.)

 

In all the time from 1950 to 1982, I was NEVER bored.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by vetsoapfan

[JarrodMFiresofLove]

 

I completely agree with what you wrote above. Bert was a sufferer. She was valiant, and yes, a martyr. That's why she was so popular with viewers for several decades. Bad things happened to her, the family was devastated by Bill's many indiscretions. But Bert kept things together and persevered in the face of hardship, putting her sons first. Having Bill come back and experience some sort of redemption would have robbed Bert, Mike and Ed of their identities. They were defined by the life they made for themselves during Bill's absence. Bill had to reach a tragic end, that was the nature of his character.

[katie_9918]

Ouch! My heart breaks with all the Bill hate!

 

No, I’m kidding. There are a lot of great points being brought up regarding Bill Bauer and his many weaknesses.

 

But I think if Bill and Bert would have ever had some kind of real sitdown or even blow-up fight between 1977 and that awful story in 1983, it might turn out that Bill might have some major things to forgive. Even by today’s standards, Bert Bauer was not a good wife to Bill. She constantly spent money they didn’t have, she nagged at him, she belittled him both to his face and behind his back to his own family, and she made his life as much of a living hell as he made hers. 

 

That’s what I would have found so fascinating if only Bill would have been written to stay in Springfield after his resurrection, especially after having spent well over a decade with a woman who seemed to be completely unlike Bert. I would have found it very interesting to watch Bill reintegrate and get to know the warmer, more sympathetic, wiser, and more wonderful Bert who was only starting to emerge around the time Bill disappeared.

 

I remember a line Sean Kanan’s AJ practically snarled at Carly a few years back in General Hospital. “Why couldn’t you have built me up instead of constantly pushing me down?” Bert kept Bill on the ground a lot during their early days, and according to what I’ve read, Bill responded almost immediately and very favorably when she finally started showing him some affection. It wasn’t enough to get him off the alcohol right away, but there were other reasons at the time that Bill was hitting the sauce like there was no tomorrow.

 

Guiding Light was so good at exposing uncomfortable truths, especially at the time, and I think it would have been wild for a completely different (and better) Bert and a completely different (and better) Bill confront the fact that, whatever the hardships and however they remain tied together by their family, they became their best selves once they weren’t shackled together anymore.

 

And think of the shockwaves that would have gone through that Springfield if Bert and Bill did file for divorce, but Bill stayed in town and they wound up making peace and becoming good friends as Bill re-entered.

Edited August 24, 2018 by katie_9918

[robbwolff]

The child, then known as Bert Bauer Ramsey, was born in October/November 1985 when the show was still penned by Long Hammer and Ryder. Long was credited up until around January 1986 when she went on maternity leave. There's an article on this very board that was posted here back in 2010. It was published in Soap Opera Digest in April 1986. The article stated that Long was on maternity leave at that time and might not return. In fact, she moved over over to Search for Tomorrow in mid-1986. She didn't return to Guiding Light until around August 1987. The child was renamed Michelle sometime between her birth in October/November 1985 and spring 1986. There's an episode on YouTube with Maureen and Bea from April 1986 and Mo refers to the baby as Michelle. So the baby was definitely renamed well before Long returned.

 

 

[j swift]

 

A fine example of why I am endlessly entertained by this board.  I was thinking about characters who came on with a bang, but were an instant bust because of behind the scenes shenanigans.  Tangie was the first example to spring to mind.  I knew that the writers changed but I had forgotten all of this detail.  We are lucky to have this resource to keep these references fresh, and thanks to anyone who can recall the information so succinctly and with such humor. 

 

The whole convoluted backstory with Roger was odd with details of her being sold to him at 15.  Then, there was an almost immediate backtracking so that Roger was less of a perv.  Also, for two years her motivations were never clarified; was she a con or a good guy?   From her intro she works as a prototype for future European Dinah.  But also, a great example that it takes a village to screw up a character; no single writer, actor, or producer is to blame in this situation.

[vetsoapfan]

 

Thank you, Katie, for that insightful and heartfelt analysis of the Bill Bauer saga. You expressed it PERFECTLY.

 

I certainly did not hate Bill; indeed, I loved all the original core Bauer family members and loved watching their journeys unfold over the decades.

 

I saw Bill as an essentially kind-hearted, quiet man who would have been perfectly content working at a comfortable, middle-class job and enjoying a tranquil family life at home. But no. That was not good enough for Bert, who was quite a shrew and a harpy back in the day. Not content with what she had (which was a stable home and security), she kept nagging and nagging Bill to earn more, to be more, to achieve more, thereby pushing her poor husband out of his comfort zone and inflicting undue stress on him. Papa Bauer had his own, old-school ideas of what it meant to be a man, and I don't think he really understood Bill's underlying contentment with just having a simple, quiet middle-class existence rather than striving for high-stress-inducing jobs and greater (unnecessary) financial gains.

 

I think Bill turned to alcohol because he felt like a personal and professional failure, and he turned to other women because they made him feel like a desirable man. He got little support and little understanding from his family who put unreasonable expectations on him. This did not excuse his bad choices, of course, but his reactions were human and at least understandable. He was not a strong, naturally-aggressive person. He did not have the resources to fight the negativity he was receiving at home, so drinking and carousing were his coping mechanisms.

 

To her credit, Bert eventually started to come around and see how life had hurt her husband. She finally started to respect him for the person he was, rather than the man she wanted him to become.

 

One of my all-time favorite TGL episodes aired in 1966 (I think). Ed was railing to his mother about all of Bill's shortcomings and failures, and Bert finally had enough. She tore Ed a new one, vehemently telling him that Bill was a good man and a kind man; that he was ultimately a BIG man, and although it horrified her to acknowledge it, Ed was not. Ed was a nothing more than a small man who did not live up to his father in any way. IT WAS WONDERFUL to see such truthful, explosive family drama unfold that year, for characterizations to deepen, for Bert to grow as a person and come to realize her own guilt in  exacerbating Bill's problems.

 

What I always wanted the show to explore, was Ed's abject hypocrisy towards his father. For as much as Ed denigrated Bill for drinking, for infidelity, for failing the family, Ed HIMSELF became a drunken philanderer who abandoned and failed his own family in the exact same way.

 

I did not want Bert and Bill to remarry after he turned up alive in 1977, for that would have undermined all the progress Bert had made during his absence. She had grown into a moral, strong, sympathetic figure who put her family's welfare above her own needs and ambitions. She had became "the guiding light" of the Bauer family and of the show. And while I had all the sympathy in the world for Bill's pain over the years, his allowing his elderly father, wife, and kids to believe he was dead for so long was inexcusable. I wanted Bill and Bert (and Ed) to finally work through their long-standing issues and come to some sort of understanding; at least an uneasy peace. Bert and Bill could have become sympathetic friends and allies to support their family, not husband and wife again, and if he had died at that point, after the healing process with his family was established, then Bill Bauer's death would have meant something. It would have had emotional resonance with the audience. It would have brought the character around full circle, back into the bosom of his family and the hearts of viewers.  But the callous, indifferent way TPTB chose to kill off the character, with none of his issues dealt with, explored, or resolved, was simply a slap in the face. A cheap gimmick done for shock value that offered no emotional pay-off, no closure, nothing. An original character from the early days of the show, killed off for no reason other than to jump=start a ludicrous story that was not appropriate for TGL anyway.

 

Sigh.

Edited August 24, 2018 by vetsoapfan

[JarrodMFiresofLove]

Okay thanks for clarifying. We should indicate the dates you gave are when her material started airing on Search and on GL (when she returned in 87). So she was probably already working at Search in April 86 and her material started appearing on screen around June. In order for her material to start airing again on GL in August 87, she would have written a new bible and started taking charge of the daily writing back in May or June. 87. My guess is she had a long-term contract with P&G since her days as a head writer at Texas. And the company would move her around and put her where they needed her to fix things.

 

I should say that I had a slight personal connection to her. She was my favorite writer when I was in high school. As luck would have it, a girl in one of my elective classes who was two years older than me (she was class of 87 and I was class of 89) graduated and went east. We went to high school in Colorado. Anyway, the girl left town and I assumed she went off to college. We were acquaintances not really close. About a year later I got a letter from that girl who had found a job as a nanny in Connecticut (Ridgefield, CT to be exact). She told me she was the nanny for Pam Long's two sons. She remembered my talking about Pam Long being my favorite soap writer in high school and she said she told Pam about me.

 

I wrote my old school mate back and asked her what it was like. She said Pam was fun to work for and sometimes my friend was able to go into NYC with Pam and visit the GL studio. She said one day when she was on the set it had been announced Krista Tesreau was leaving the show. So Pam decided to have Mindy marry Will Jeffries and write Mindy out that way. I guess that was big problem at the time, how to write Mindy out since Tesreau wanted to go west and try her luck in L.A.

 

Flash forward to 1991. I had since graduated from high school. And I had gone west to attend film school in L.A. I took a soap writing class and our professor encouraged us to try and get internships on the various shows, you know, to "get our foot in the door." So I decided to send a letter to Pam Long who was at that point the head writer of Santa Barbara. I sent it to NBC, because I wasn't sure if she and her sons still lived back in Connecticut and had lost contact with the girl I went to high school with. Pam sent me a very nice letter saying she remembered her nanny telling her about me. It was on Santa Barbara stationary. In one of the paragraphs she made a point of telling me to make sure I stayed in college and graduated. It felt like advice a mother would give. It had just been announced that Santa Barbara was going off the air. So I ended up getting an internship and production assistant job at General Hospital instead.

[Mitch]

 

Talk about backstage gossip...there was supposedly some backstage chemistry with the A-M actor and Beaty, and that is part of his whole running around naked backstage craziness. I don't think it was for publicity, they replaced Beaty during the most important part of the storyline, the unmasking..

 

I also thought Beaty was good, and had a smoldering sexiness to him. I wish they had made him Rita's son with Ed...who was tricked into believing he was Alan's son so, which is why he competed with A-M..then we would have had a "bad Bauer" and still family connection and competition with A-M. Would have put energy into the family, reminded Ed of his abusive, alcholic past (and maybe woke Simon up) annoyed Rick, confused Michelle.  I would never had him rape that silly Cooper girl...Why was Phelps so insistent in pushing Lucy and trying to make the audience feel for her through rape is cynical as can be..and they ruined a character with more potential to try to push a characters with a short shelf life.

[Soaplovers]

 

I recall when I was a kid coming home from grade school and my mom being surprised when Mindy and Will hooked up/married...how it came out of left field yet made sense since Mindy was always impulsive.

 

So I had forgotten right before the mindy/will marriage...that she and Frank Cooper dated.  I honestly couldn't see the two together..and it makes me wonder what Long would have done with Mindy if Krista T hadnt opted to leave the show..since I didnt see frank being her main love interest long term unless he was a place holder for when Rusty lost Rose in 1989?   I recall that frank and mindy hardly interacted after their brief fling until when the original actress came back for a visit in 2002 and the two shared a dance for old times sake.

 

Even during low periods of GL, they always would reference past events/couplings...like a scene in 2000 when Harley, cassie and blake were joking that their three kids would probably be in a love triangle till one by one the three realized their three kids were cousins (a rare time Philip's Marler roots were mentioned)...and I liked that Hawk/Lillian kept up a flirting interaction years after they broke up..all the way to 2009 when Hawk proclaimed that if things didnt work out with Buzz that he would be there for her.  And having Frank/Blake end up together at the end kind of made sense since they had a great rapport in the early to mid 90s before the show forgot the two knew each other for many years.

 

And I liked Fletcher as the buddy...and how he was always the second choice for most of his love interests.  He was the guy you could be friends with, but never see in a romantic way... the guy you should be with,, but never quite feeling it felt right.  Hilary, alexandra, vanessa, claire, and Holly were prime examples of women who were with Fletcher because he was safe and secure..yet they weren't in love with him.  I thought he and Maeve worked together..and were a steady supportive couple...not a star couple, but a good supporting coupling.

 

I had asked this question about Holly and Roger...but I'll ask this about Josh and Reva.  Which of their love interests did you like them with best?  For me, I liked Reva with Kyle..and I liked Josh with Annie Dutton (pre going crazy).

[j swift]

Its interesting that you bring up Holly and Roger because my earlier comment about preferring Bert not having to forgive Bill also goes for Roger.

 

I get that they needed to address the history.  However, I was reading the 1990 recap when they are set up in the Caribbean by Alexandra (who is jealous of a woman and her rapist) and Roger tearfully apologizes.  Roger then spends the rest of the 90's either being a charming cad, a scheming cad,  or seething with anger.  Holly learns nothing, gets scammed by Daniel, goes nuts, and finds love at the very end. 

 

I hate it in retrospect. 

 

I hate that Holly, who seemed liberated, still was reactive to whatever Roger does, rather than having her own strength.  I hate that Blake still admires Roger rather than Holly.  I hate that Roger gets one hot lady after another and Holly gets the leftovers from every b-story hero.  I wish she hadn't forgiven him and made him uncomfortable in every room she entered for the rest of the character's life.