OLTL: Discussion for the week August 17

[DRW50]

I'm not sure the story is about going after a piece of the pie. The story receives minimal airtime and has had little promotion. The story is also turning into being all about Frons favorite Stacy.

I don't think Y&R, which only got publicity for their story because of an actor quitting the show, was the template here. I think they may have seen the connection between Brett Claywell and Scott Evans and decided to write it into the script.

[All My Shadows]

I agree about Kyle. I'm gonna try to go along for the ride, but I can't stop myself from thinking...DUDE, why is you wasting your time? You mean to tell me there aren't ANY other guys in Llanview for you to meet? Roxy can't hook you up with some of her friends' sons? Or her own?

This story is far from perfect, but so few stories are ever perfect in daytime. I just hope that TPTB at the show understand that and aren't made to believe that they're writing God's gift to gays.

I totally agree with the idea that they jumped into this out of nowhere. I wasn't watching much then, but when Fish slept with Stacy, was there any hesitation on his part? I feel that by giving Fish this baggage a year after he was introduced, they missed out on nuances that they could have added to his character months ago. I'm not the world's greatest writer by a long shot, but IMO, it's better to have a character completely, and 100% figured out when you first introduce him/her. You can't leave blanks to fill in later because then there's sort of an inconsistency.

The fact that they're sideline characters with no familiar connections doesn't really bother me. I'm not in the camp of "Everyone must be connected to everyone else in some way!"

[DRW50]

Roxy's friends' sons probably charge by the hour.

Unless you want to turn Sky or you want a man who calls you a whore or cheats on you, there aren't a lot of men in Llanview. I'd say Marrko, but he's only supposed to be 18 and he's involved with Dorian's daughter, which means she'd have Kyle deballed by the end of the week. And if he went after Brody, Jess would probably turn into Les, a repressed gay man who alternately tells Brody/Kyle they're going to burn in hell and asks if she can join in with them.

Too bad they had to kill Wes.

[Soapsuds]

Funny post CarlD....LOL....Great post too AMS. I am just going for the ride in this story. Everyone does seem to complain about gay storylines. I'm not expecting a miracle outstanding story here. I've been disappointed too many times already...ie...Nuke...Adam/Rafe...whatever the hell that was......etc...

I just thought today's show was nicely written for Kish.

[Cheap21]

Did Stacy really need a skank best friend?

[DRW50]

According to RC, she's supposed to humanize Stacy.

[brimike]

It's just all so earnest. That's always been my problem with Nuke too.

You know what I want my gay love story to be on soaps? Mason and Julia on Santa Barbara. Or Cass and Lila on Another World. Fast-paced, argumentative banter back and forth. Two people who drive each other absolutely f'in' crazy, but have insane amounts of chemistry. I'm so over this whole "coming out of the closet" thing. Give me something with fire. I understand we can't really show them in the sack, but if we can't show them naked and making out, at least find another way to give me heat. And that whole Rhett/Scarlett kind of dialogue/love story can be unbelievably sexy, with everyone's clothes still on.

[DRW50]

We don't get that with straight couples on soaps now (or in most primetime), we won't get it with gay couples either. They assume viewers don't want to see that now, that we're too stupid to understand what's going on. We are just going to get soulmates, fate, and angst, and people treating each other like crap, or one person being treated badly and taking it because that's what love is about.

[All My Shadows]

Pretty much. I'm not gonna sport any Kyliver banners or label them a supercouple (because they're not even a couple), but eh, I'll enjoy them until there's oversaturation. And by that, I mean mindless protests, "bans," and black-hole-esque message boards. I can deal with subpar storytelling as long as it isn't praised as being "touching" and "gentle" and all that bull-ish. I'm with brimike. There have been way more than enough coming out stories on television...it's time to get pass that, really. Everybody's coming out, but if they're not gonna DO anything, they might as well go back in!

[Marc]

I didn't say that Fish sleeping with Stacy was an example of his once being straight. What I basically said was that it proves that he has no problem performing with women. His being totally competent in bedding down Stacy, but then flinching at the prospect of being intimate with Layla...seemingly because she's a woman and now we know he's gay...was a cheap move by the writers and a break in character continuity. They should have figured out another way to red flag his homosexuality to viewers. Also as I mentioned before, the near 180 Kyle has done is way too abrupt. He's gone from being Paul Cramer to practically Joey Buchanan. There's no reason they couldn't have made him gay and STILL a self serving schemer who has enemies. Do they fear a backlash by having a gay guy be unlikable? They are rewriting these characters (plus Roxy...as mentioned earlier, her going from almost hating Kyle to being his biggest supporter...plus Carlotta....Patricia Maurcei was right, she WOULDN'T be okay with Cristian being gay...at least not initially...but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it! lol) to fit the story, which IMO lessens it. Don't rewrite characters to fit plot! I know soaps do it all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

Being gay myself, I want to like the Kish story. I really do. But I have to judge it like I do every other story on the show. I can't be one of those viewers who is willing to ignore its flaws just because I like the CONCEPT.

[DRW50]

Carlotta's never given an opinion on homosexuality. I can see her accepting it after some initial panic. Roxy is your friend as long as you buy her a drink. She's never been a consistent character.

They have rewritten some elements but they do that with all the stories. Look at all this with Todd, who is now inexplicably written as a great guy who can't help loving the ladies and being harrassed by his mean ex-wife.

[Doyen]

Higley used to do that. While I do think that characters can evolve over time; mellow and /or eventually adopt new traits…I will agree that Kyle, in the span of weeks, going from threatening to expose someone's sister having a baby that didn't belong to her if they didn't pay him off, to posturing about self acceptance is a bit jarring.

[Ann_SS]

And we are supposed to believe that Fish knows what kind of prejudice his conservatives white parents have against interracial relationships? I certainly don't. More importantly, I don't believe for a second that RC or FV give a [!@#$%^&*]. I always see RC's defenders claiming that it is Frons, but know what, RC is as much a hack as any soap headwriter that has ever come along.

[DRW50]

I can see where he might, since he's been around them most of his life, and for all we know this isn't the first time they've seen him with a black woman. There are also parents who know instinctively their son might be gay, and are relived that he's with any woman, so long as she's an OK person.

I do understand what you're saying, I guess I've seen enough people who are homophobic but who don't care about interracial relationships to where this writing choice doesn't bother me, even if some of the details in the story are sloppy.

[Leia]

I thought the dialogue for the Fish and Kyle scenes were extremely well written with the way it filled in the back story about the intimacy they shared in college. And then visually reinforced that intimacy onscreen. It was a poignant character driven moment and I'm a sucker for those.

I understand the criticism about how many coming out of the closet stories we've seen on daytime but to me it's daytime. How many times can we see a murder, a whose the daddy, or a long lost daughter, father etc.? Stacked up against those overplayed beats, I find it hard to even compare coming out of the closet to it especially when it seems that people are still struggling with it. As long as it is reflective human condition, I have no problem with daytime telling that particular story as long as it is well-written which I think it is.

Isn't a bit too early to tell though if Fish using Layla as a beard is a flaw when his parents haven't arrived yet?

I understand that Fish is afraid of how his conservative parents will react to him coming out but we still haven't seen how they will react to Layla. That beat could be played as the flaw in Fish's logic.

The characters of Fish and Kyle are too new or too underdeveloped to the show for me to decry lack of character continuity in regards to the writing for them. Fish slept with Stacy after he was rejected by Layla. The whole thing played odd and the way Fish responded to Stacy afterwards was too strange for me to hold it up as example of how Fish's normal sex life. He alluded that was his first experience with a woman. Things changed for him once Kyle or the person who knew he was gay reentered his life. After coming face to face with Kyle, he seemed more desperate than ever which is why it made sense to me that he would struggle sexually now.

I also applaud their use of minor characters in this story. We normally deride tptb for not using their whole cast. I think in this case, the fact that they used the two minor characters to create a quad of four unconnected characters actually works for this particular story they are telling. Instantly, it diversified the story addressing one of the key criticisms vocalized over the past year. The characters have all been around long enough on the canvas to get a story and they are all in need of more development. The fact that they aren't directly connected to the dead weight of characters like Rex, Stacy, Gigi and now Kim seems like a bonus. It enables the writers to strive towards some of the necessary beats for both Fish and Kyle in this story. Who else would they have used? Jessica and Brody? I can't see how they would fit- they were coming off the babyswitch story. Natalie and Jared are newlyweds. Blair was married to John when the story began. The only other candidates are Rex, Gigi and Stacy and honestly the last thing those characters needed was MORE story. They needed a group of characters who could fit together into a group and I think they made the right choice. Whose to say that it would have worked better if they had selected another character? We don't all agree on who is viable and who isn't.

Cristian and Blair's conversation. I've always liked their rapport and I liked what it accomplished. It showed that Cristian was conflicted about his actions and what steps if any he should take. It didn't to me serve as a contrivance because it fit within the context of the position the character is in. Also, it made sense for both Cristian and Blair to relate through their problems as that to me seems like a realistic conversation. Whenever I discuss my problems with my friends, they usually provide advice based on their own life's experiences which is what I felt they did there.

Rachel and Greg. They are much better than Shaun and Rachel. Their romantic chemistry has just the right touch. When they share scenes, I forget that we are supposed to be rooting for Shaun and Rachel. Rachel is stunning and I think she sparks well with all of the men she has tested with. But so far, she stands out the best with Greg. They are interesting together. Bo and Nora are finally talking about what the kiss meant which spells doom for Clint and Nora's marriage as if we didn't already know that.

Todd and Blair. How much longer can they ride on this long dead horse? I don't know what they will do with Blair but I pray she is not headed back down the raod towards a reunion with Todd. At the same time, I don't think I buy that Todd is in love with Tea. Tea and Elijah are starting off with a bang. My only problem is that I wish that Elijah was Kevin. There is something about him that reminds me of Tim Gibbs' (????) Kevin Buchanan. The absence of Kevin Buchanan is profound. With Elijah on the scene, I realize how we are totally devoid of any core male men in their 20's and 30's. As someone said upthread, I don't need every character on the show to become connected in order to have viability. But I do think it is an injustice not to have core males in one of the most important age groups.