Members You're Soaking in it Posted June 30, 2009 Members Share Posted June 30, 2009 Yeah, I was including you, Marceline. Please don't ask me to "step up" to anything. I haven't crossed any lines and have been very fair about how I've looked at the whole PM situation. I haven't branded her anything, except perhaps "really misguided" (over the assertion that she threw away her job because she KNEW Carlotta MUST be a homophobe... which we don't even know is true). You're bringing up a LOT of things that don't pertain to me. You included me in your backlash (whether its against other posters or the OLTL situation) because you directed it at gay people in general. I'm one of them. Many people here are. Regardless of what you read elsewhere on this board, do I or anyone else who happens to be gay DESERVE to be lumped and trashed as you did? Keep in mind again, I'm not talking about what you feel about OTHER things on this thread... and I can't be tied to those, either (as much as I can to Perez Hilton, anyway)... I'm talking about what you said. Is that really how you feel about people who happen to be gay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members marceline Posted June 30, 2009 Members Share Posted June 30, 2009 What comment of mine are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members You're Soaking in it Posted June 30, 2009 Members Share Posted June 30, 2009 I'll go ahead and respond to this, though I feel like it's almost a compromise of dignity to do it - since I think it should be obvious. I actually know Nelson, somewhat, from past professional experience... and I have NEVER been an admirer. He was cocky and vapid, and that combination repels me. As it stands today, I think he sucks the respect out of journalism. I couldn't care less about Daytime Confidential. (And for the record, Perez Hilton isn't our spokesperson, either.) I can say something that almost sums it all up: My problem is, well, you ASKED me (us, gay people) that question as if it were almost a given that many gay people DO look at these as voices for them. Is that what you believe? I can't imagine why else you'd be asking that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vee Posted June 30, 2009 Members Share Posted June 30, 2009 I do not consider Perez Hilton or Nelson Branco to be my voice. And I resent being lumped in with those men, but what I resent more is all gay fans or Kyle/Fish fans (fans of a gay pairing) or gay OLTL staff (FV/RC) being lumped in with Branco and Perez the way you did when you talked about our mysterious "ideology" that we all supposedly share by daring to be offended by the possibility that an actor would refuse to play a scene in which she was supportive of homosexuality. Or at least, I think that's what you're implying, that we all move en masse against an actor at even the hint of homophobia. Never mind that I've explained my reasons for my being offended, and never mind that you have no way of knowing how other gay soap fans, or "Kish" fans, or FV or RC feel about this - that they're all gay or gay-friendly seems to be enough for you. You claim it's "my gay or the highway," but you can't articulate what the hell you're talking about. You can't own what you're hinting around the edges of. Or maybe you're too frightened to. It's okay, I get the picture. So does everybody else. You let your anger about RC's OLTL (which is not the issue here) and "overbearing" gay and gay-friendly posters get the better of you and you said something beyond the pale. I wouldn't expect you to own it, articulate it, or apologize for it. It's just not your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members marceline Posted July 1, 2009 Members Share Posted July 1, 2009 Because as a minority I KNOW what it's like to be lumped in with some idiot who couldn't speak for me if his/her life depended on it. I can't tell you how many times I've read some article or watched some interview where someone said "The Aftrican-american community doesn't believe..." Gay marriage is actually a perfect example of this. It blows my mind when I see some preacher standing up on the news saying that black people don't believe in gay mariage. Because if anyone ever asked me if that person spoke for me I'd scream "HELL NO" at the top of my lungs. I asked if Nelson speaks for you because as you said we've had good, respectful interaction and as saddened as you are by whatever it is I said that offended you, I am equally saddened by the thought that you think like Nelson. I asked if these people speak for you because of all the times I wish somebody had asked if so-and-so spoke for me. I was trying to respect you as an individual and not assume that because you're gay and Perez is gay you all must be plugged in to the same gay hive mind. So I'm going to ask again. I'm going to ask because I have enjoyed our interactions even when we didn't agree. Do they speak for you? And if they don't then what do YOU think about all this? I'd rather hear from you than Nelson, Perez or my friendly neighborhood board stalker. And I'm also going to ask again what did I say that offended you so much? How do you feel I trashed you and the gay community at large? Because when I've referenced the gay community in my posts, for instance "the my gay or the highway" crowd I am talking about a very small VERY ugly group of people that starts with Perez, Nelson, the DC crew and maybe five posters on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vee Posted July 1, 2009 Members Share Posted July 1, 2009 Yes, marceline, I commented on Patricia Mauceri's firing but really I was only here for you; it's all about you. I've barely posted in the last few months, but really I've been waiting for a moment to strike. Of course. You assume that because some of us agree with Mauceri's firing if it was based on her having a bigoted personal response to a scene that we are "letting Perez Hilton and Nelson Branco speak for us." That's not it. Many of us said up front that we don't care for those men, but we just so happen to feel the same way as they do about Mauceri's ouster if it's as described. I can't help the fact that Branco and I happen to have the same opinion on a single situation, and I'm not going to alter my feelings just so I don't have to agree with Nelson Branco. What I didn't realize is that you would claim each fan that agrees with Mauceri's firing is sharing some sort of extremist gay ideology with Branco and Perez. And you can insult and ignore me all you like while trying to get yourself out of the hole with everyone else, but the fact is you said this [!@#$%^&*] to me and I'm going to be here until you have to own up to it. Keep on editing your posts, by all means. We all saw what you said, and you tossed Kyle and Fish fans onto the heap too, plus gay executives, plus all Nelson and Hilton's mysterious "lapdogs on various boards." Keep on equivocating, it's what you do best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members You're Soaking in it Posted July 1, 2009 Members Share Posted July 1, 2009 Well... asking me (and other gay people) how we feel about Nelson / Daytime Confidential being our voice was offensive, in and of itself. I noticed that you left Perez Hilton out of that question, when you had always included him with those before... That came after I'd just mentioned how much I resented being associated with Perez just because he's gay. But I guess the turning point, what really struck me, was this comment of yours: "The irony is the Kyle/Fish story has now become sullied by Nelson, Perez and their rabid little lapdogs at DaytimeConfidential, and on various boards i.e. the very people who have been wanting it for so long. Now throw in the fact that Carlivati and Valentini have become so power hungry, desperate and intolerant even in the face of their bleeding ratings, that they've done more damage than any homophobe. The 'my gay or the highway' crowd has damaged the very thing they supposedly are trying to defend." You really appeared, particularly with that last part, to reference gay people in general, pointedly those who may question Mauceri is a homophobe (which to question, given the circumstances, I feel is valid). So there we all are. What's common is that everything referenced in that statement is all GAY, whether it's a specific person or a group. And it even mentions doing more damage than homophobia. It's so generalizing and, for me, put a certain light on everything you said that followed. So that's my answer. BUT... this isn't about you, and I don't want to lay it on you personally. For me, it's about a heated frenzy on this thread. It's really negative, and has become too personal and sad. I have to consider that people may not realize the message they're putting out to others here. If I'm wrong about that on ANY count, and there are people here that are just anti-gay (in any way - even if you feel gay viewers are "troubling" the soaps) and they just don't want to be forward and admit it.... I'd rather they just never communicate with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members You're Soaking in it Posted July 1, 2009 Members Share Posted July 1, 2009 (Double post... ignore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members marceline Posted July 1, 2009 Members Share Posted July 1, 2009 Well let me me give this a shot.... I left Perez out of it because this is about soaps. Nelson and DC deal with soaps. Perez deal with anything he wants. For all my issues with the "gay" part of this, I actually have bigger issues with how this debacle represents the soap audience. I hate that Branco has somehow become the voice of the online soap community. I can't control whether he speaks for gay people but I can damn sure call him out for his part in the cheapening of discussions about soaps. But in case its unclear. I loathe Perez. I consider him the gay community's version of Flava Flav. I stand by that comment. But I tried to be very specific and not lay it on "gay viewers." honestly I don't know how I could've been more specific other than to call out the posters on the various boards. I DO think that Branco, DC, Frank and Ron as well as several posters on this board have damaged what should have been just a love story but now it's been dirtied by this PM business. I don't think PM objected to the gay content. I believe she objected to the writing for her character. I'm not going to back away from that until I see something more concrete. Yes, everything in my response was "all GAY." That's because this actress (and I) are being accused of hating gay people. I've already said that I don't think this is about homophobia. I think this is about race, gender, and power. I've always thought RC was a hack and I think that he had plans for Carlotta that made no sense. I've always thought FV was a petty control freak and I still do. The fact that they're both gay only means that RC is a gay hack and Valentini is a gay control freak. I think this is about the way ABC does business. If I'm wrong then I'll own that. I'm sorry if you feel like I've disrespected you or your community. That wasn't my intention. I don't think "gay viewers" are troubling but I DO think what has happened here is. I guess it is my failing but I don't know how to hold the haters responsible in a way that lets the sane people know how much your voices are truly needed. Something really nasty has happened to this board and the online soap community in general. We've lost our diversity and our tolerance. Marlena is gone for the summer. Snark doesn't blog anymore. Ravenbeauty quit after ten years. Somehow a small ugly minority has claimed to become the voice for all of us. Anyway, thanks for your honesty and your willingness to meet me halfway. I truly do appreciate it. And this seems like a good time and place for me to return to the shadows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vee Posted July 1, 2009 Members Share Posted July 1, 2009 Maybe you can apologize to the gay or straight Kyle/Fish fans before you go, since if you read your post, it was not "just five posters" you attacked. You dragged them into this, too, for no apparent reason. And don't worry, I know your apology wasn't meant for me. I was way too strident about my right to be offended by Mauceri's alleged behavior for your tastes, so I'm just another one of "the haters." The difference is if the situation was reversed, I wouldn't treat you that way. I'm not keeping score on you, marceline, but you are welcome to do it to me. Thanks for putting Ravenbeauty's name in the same breath as "sanity and tolerance," though. That was a real laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeeeDee Posted July 1, 2009 Members Share Posted July 1, 2009 Kassie has such shiny shiny hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members miajere Posted July 1, 2009 Members Share Posted July 1, 2009 This wasn't directed towards me but: I don't believe you have to be a gay or lesbian to effected by or offended by discrimination/hate etc... I think there are alot of people gay and straight alike that were excited by this s/l, or better yet excited about the diversity it brought to our screens. I'm sick and tired of the the audience and ABCD trying to tell me what I should like, who I should want to watch, and for those reasons, I don't give a care about how someone else feels about some breaking news or a potential romance. How about this: I don't see Nelson or Perez as a voice for me; and therefore I can't imagine them being a voice for anyone other then themselves. But I do recognize that people interested in seeing changes on their screen are willing to go along with one voice in order to make a difference- agenda, fanbase- and it's rampant in the soap community; and argued to be the death of it. Whereby we're more than happy to let a few outspoken individuals take the reigns. It also seems that if you're not interested in going along for that ride you are "causing more problems", "digging holes for the group", "making it worst" and I perceive that to be a problem in this community, whereby there can't be dissenting views because we think tptb are so stupid, they might listen to the wrong one. When are we going to realize that tptb don't listen to the fans, at least not anymore; and they always have had a fear of their more puritanical and bigoted audience members? Personally I don't see the point in getting offended (not trying to tell you how to feel) when there's not a person on this board keeping you from something/holding back from 'your' show; and that's all we want to do- watch a good show. WIth or without PM, this s/l was going to come out and there were already going to be alot of confused individuals saying alot of things you don't like; regardless of how outspoken Perez and Nelson are. What are we gonna do? Get pissed off every time someone with a keyboard posts messages that mirror some of our everyday realities? IMO, I think that can take alot of fun out of the watching, and for those reasons alone this s/l could possibly be spoiled. Not because it's not good, well written, entertaining; but because you would be watching it thinking about everyone who had a problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IcyOne Posted July 1, 2009 Members Share Posted July 1, 2009 So...we lose a 15 yr. vet at the mantle of this story. Thank you Kyle. Thank you Fish. I'm so endeared to you two now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Carolyn1980 Posted July 1, 2009 Members Share Posted July 1, 2009 Eh. I always liked her, but if she is against homosexuality, then I'm happy she's gone. Heck, I'd like to see her blackballed from the industry if it's true (and so far, she hasn't felt the need to say it's not true). She's equivalent to a racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ian Posted July 2, 2009 Members Share Posted July 2, 2009 wow... can we play nice kids? Your character being tolerant isn't a reason to object. My God, let's turn the dial to 2009 and deal with things like grownup adults shall we? She should have been grateful for the work, and even a bit part in a story that had nothing to do with her. Carlotta is replaceable, and the actress will find work again or she won't, and she'll work at a diner in real life. It's not like we lost Erika or anything. You can debate it till the cows come home but it's the equivalent of eat what's on your plate... an actor is given a script. They shut up and act. Any questions? Any actor worth the gunpowder to blow them to hell can put THEMSELVES aside for the sake of the story. Quitting, presumably because Carlotta wouldn't like gay people, isn't for the actress to decide. Carlotta likes what the writers tell her to like! If that's gay people, anchovies or liver and onions, she's gotta act it and she's gotta like it. Carlotta wasn't asked to shoot a kid in the face or kick a puppy here. It's really all of little consequence so let's stop giving ourselves carpal tunnel firing off hateful messages back and forth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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