7 minutes ago, j swift said:

I'm surprised after all that John put Pat through, but I guess it fits with the character that Pat was never one to complain to her mother about her marital problems.  And, it fits with the times that John's alcoholism was viewed more as a character deficit than a disease.  

I never remember Mary having as much hostility for John as she did for Rachel or Steve, but both Mary and Jim were disappointed and frustrated when John turned to drink and left Pat in 1974.

John had turned to drink and started fighting with Pat that year because of Steve, anyway. Steve had broken the law and bribed Rachel's father to testify against her in Steve's and Rachel's divorce trial. When John found out about Steve's criminal behavior, he felt duty bound to tell the court. Pat wanted him to keep quiet to protect Alice.

In the end, I figured that Mary didn't come down too hard on John during his break up with Pat, because the whole thing was Steve's fault, and Mary wasn't Steve's biggest cheerleader anyway.

Edited March 8, 20241 yr by vetsoapfan

Pat was always my favorite because she came across as the most liberated woman in Bay City.

She was also the middle child, so it made sense that Mary was not involved in her life as she was with Russ and Alice.

But, even as a kid, I loved Pat's time at Brava.  I liked her sparring with Cecile.  And, I liked her relationship with Marianne.

In defense of Lemay, he may not have liked traditional maternal role models, but he established Pat as a contemporary woman.  She wasn't inhibited by her husband's failings.  She went out on her own and helped establish a brand for Mac.  She was an executive, not an assistant.  And she was upwardly mobile without being driven by the need for acquisition or acceptance, like Rachel or Cecile. 

Edited March 8, 20241 yr by j swift

1 hour ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

If I recall correctly, Mary liked Steve and supported his romance with Alice until around the time Steve married Rachel (between his marriages to Alice).  At that point, Mary gave up on Steve and encouraged Alice to move on without him and date other men.  

Regarding Rachel -- Mary never really trusted Rachel, but tried to be supportive of Russ's marriage to her.  When the family found out Jamie was not Russ's son and that Rachel had become pregnant by Steve Frame, Mary turned against Rachel vehemently and more or less grew to hate her.  But there was a nice scene between Rachel and Mary in 1975, after Rachel was seeing Mac.  The two women ran into one another in the hospital cafeteria, and had an uncomfortable but civil exchange.  Alice walked in and joined the scene.  After Rachel left, Mary commented to Alice that Rachel seemed to have changed since meeting Mac, and she hoped Rachel could finally find happiness.  This was just a feew weeks before Mary died.  

1 hour ago, vetsoapfan said:

Mary was uneasy about Rachel from early on, regardless of how much Rachel tried to ingratiate herself into the family. It was clear that Rachel was desperate to better her life's circumstances, in terms of money and social status.

After Jim Matthews found out that Steve, and not Russ, had gotten Rachel pregnant, Mary couldn't even control her fury. She became enraged and started shrieking, "I hate her! I HATE HER!" Imagine Alice Horton or Ruth Martin or Jessie Brewer going berserk like that. It was actually rather chilling.

Mary was okay with Steve at the beginning. He was kind to Alice and respectful to the family. But after what he did to Russ and Alice, Mary developed negative feelings about Steve, and her cool reserve lasted a long time.

Mary became chilly towards Steve after he devastated her children, but she never had a beef with John, IIRC.

I was questioning this because I got around to listening to the 10th-anniversary link that you all posted here last night. When the wedding was brought up (and I don't know if it was just me), Mary seemed sympathetic to John but sounded dry at the mention of Steve. I kind of figured that she didn't take to Steve at all; however, didn't John step out on Pat when Mary was alive? I know that all the stuff with Olive came afterward. I'd imagine that Mary's feelings for him would have been very different too. 

Was Jim OK with Rachel or did he tolerate her? I have always noticed that the patriarchs on a lot of soaps have a soft spot for the headstrong daughter-in-laws despite everything. 

1 hour ago, vetsoapfan said:

@Mona Kane Croft, I agree with your analysis of Mary Matthews, and how the character seriously devolved under Harding Lemay. He even acknowledged in print that he wanted to imbue her with the negative attributes that were more appropriate "for a woman like that."

Under Irna Phillips, Agnes Nixon and Robert Cenedella, however, Mary was a warm, nurturing, maternal figure.

Irna Phillips had envisioned Mary to be like Nancy..only with more shades of grey.

She had lost her importance when Liz was reintroduced and given more position with Pat, Russ, and Alice then Mary was.

14 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

She had lost her importance when Liz was reintroduced and given more position with Pat, Russ, and Alice then Mary was.

And guess who's decision that was...   Actually, Mary didn't lose her importance, her importance was taken from her.   

7 hours ago, j swift said:

Pat was always my favorite because she came across as the most liberated woman in Bay City.

She was also the middle child, so it made sense that Mary was not involved in her life as she was with Russ and Alice.

But, even as a kid, I loved Pat's time at Brava.  I liked her sparring with Cecile.  And, I liked her relationship with Marianne.

In defense of Lemay, he may not have liked traditional maternal role models, but he established Pat as a contemporary woman.  She wasn't inhibited by her husband's failings.  She went out on her own and helped establish a brand for Mac.  She was an executive, not an assistant.  And she was upwardly mobile without being driven by the need for acquisition or acceptance, like Rachel or Cecile. 

Pat was not the middle child.  She was the oldest of the Matthews siblings

8 minutes ago, denzo30 said:

Pat was not the middle child.  She was the oldest of the Matthews siblings

WAIT, isn't Russ older than Pat?

Edited March 9, 20241 yr by j swift

On 3/7/2024 at 10:07 PM, j swift said:

Although wasn't she a nurse's assistant (I don't recall if she graduated) and then a magazine editor, and there weren't that many stables in Bay City for Catlin to do his work, so his expectations were kind of accurate. 

Sometimes it felt like Bay City was nothing but stables, but I take your point. I believe Sally had a half-formed theory that Mac would be able to hire him for something somehow. After all, she had been made Art Director without any obvious education or training.

I scanned through the AWHP synopses for 1982 to see how that happened and they seem to go from Sally refusing to go back to college, to marrying Denny and losing money to whatever scheme he had going on, to divorcing Denny. Out of nowhere she is working with Cass and meeting Peter and being promoted to Art Director.

Note that I am all for Sally giving up nursing to go into publishing but I am still livid that Jamie left publishing to become a doctor. 

12 minutes ago, Xanthe said:

Note that I am all for Sally giving up nursing to go into publishing but I am still livid that Jamie left publishing to become a doctor. 

Oy, don't get me started on sweet little Dennis Carrington becoming a frat-bro-racecar driver

I never really understood why Jamie needed to be a doctor. I am aware it's easier to write for a doctor than for an author, but they had Felicia on the show and managed to write for her - they could have even used a writerly connection between them to shore up his relationship with Lisa (just don't mention her trying to seduce him).

I would hazard to guess that they needed a medical professional for the Dawn storyline, and it was just kismet that Jamie was proposed to return. 

However, I'd never trust a doctor who was dumb enough to get into a 'who's the daddy' plot. 

34 minutes ago, j swift said:

I would hazard to guess that they needed a medical professional for the Dawn storyline, and it was just kismet that Jamie was proposed to return. 

However, I'd never trust a doctor who was dumb enough to get into a 'who's the daddy' plot. 

Dawn was a year away when Dr Jamie showed up. In the interim Brittany needed a doctor for her baby and Amanda needed someone to give her birth control advice. But Chris Chapin could have handled both of those things if it hadn't been necessary to replace all strays with a Love, McKinnon, or Cory-adjacent character. 

3 hours ago, j swift said:

WAIT, isn't Russ older than Pat?

The original order was Pat, Alice and Russ.

Then Agnes Nixon made Russ a doctor so he was then older (maybe not as old as Pat?) but older than Alice.

7 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

The original order was Pat, Alice and Russ.

Then Agnes Nixon made Russ a doctor so he was then older (maybe not as old as Pat?) but older than Alice.

You're correct here.  Originally, Russ was considerably younger than Pat.  When AW premiered, I believe Russ was in junior high school and Pat was in college.  But when Russ returned from medical school as an adult, lots of fans assumed he was older than Pat.  He certainly seemed older than Alice at that point.  I'm not sure their exact birth order was ever mentioned in a script, after Russ was sorased, but I have read in soap history books that Russ was considered the oldest sibling.  When I was watching AW in the 1970s, I sort of assumed Russ was the middle child. No reason for this except Beverly Penberthy played Pat as so mature, I thought Pat was the oldest.  So the birth order is vague -- unless somebody can find it mentioned in a script.  

Edited March 9, 20241 yr by Mona Kane Croft

1 hour ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

You're correct here.  Originally, Russ was considerably younger than Pat.  When AW premiered, I believe Russ was in junior high school and Pat was in college.  Buy when Russ returned from medical school as an adult, lots of fans assumed he was older than Pat.  He certainly seemed older than Alice at that point.  I'm not sure their exact birth order was ever mentioned in a script, after Russ was sorased, but I have read in soap history books that Russ was considered the oldest sibling.  When I was watching AW in the 1970s, I sort of assumed Russ was the middle child. No reason for this except Beverly Penberthy played Pat as so mature, I thought Pat was the oldest.  So the birth order is vague -- unless somebody can find it mentioned in a script.  

I always thought Pat was the oldest, then Russ & Alice the baby. When the show began wasn't she 16?