The Politics Thread

[NothinButAttitude]

 

I cannot wait to toss this in the face of people I know who just LOVE Mike Pence and tout him as some good, Christian man. 

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Once all this sh-t comes out, the entire election ought to be nullified and an instant, special election ought to occur.

[marceline]

Are there people who love Mike Pence? I had a Republican friend in Indiana (A white woman who owns a restaurant in Indianapolis. We ran with the same crew in high school.) who DESPISED Pence. I don't know what he did but somehow he managed to even turn off parts of the Repub base. 

[JaneAusten]

No. Well I am sure there are some but Indiana - big no. My sister in law lives in southern Indiana and driving through Indiana last spring there were "Dump Pence" signs all over. I also have a very conservative friend who lives there who hated him.

 

Mitch Daniels former Governor was very popular but was non social issues. He was a traditional fiscal republican and had a lot of success in brining business into the state. My friend was a big supporter. Daniels endorsed Pence then of course Pence came in an was nothing like Daniels. He was the author of that disastrous legislation allowing discrimination by businesses to LGBT people based on religious freedom. And you know how popular that law was - it was rolled back. Indiana lost business as a result so of course residents hated him for it. He would have NEVER been re-elected. As a president I don't see him succeeding. He has the charisma of a rock.

 

I've been told the new governor is more in the mold of Daniels but really I have no clue now.

Edited May 1, 2017 by JaneAusten

[JaneAusten]

Democrats say they know exactly why Clinton lost.

 

I am going to stay silent because I am interested in what others think about this.

[Juliajms]

^ I think Bill Clinton was right and the party shouldn't have completely given up on the WWC.  If they can appeal to both the base and the WWC going forward they should.  That doesn't mean they should put the WWC at the center of everything or cater to them over others.  I would just say treat them like another part of a larger coalition, instead of choosing to concede that part of the electorate.

 

Maybe it's too late though. Maybe there is just this hopeless split and the economic elite have managed to divide us for the foreseeable future.  It's one the most frustrating aspects of politics to me. How can anyone who isn't filthy rich resent the poor of any race more than the ultra wealthy? I'll never understand it.

[ReddFoxx]

It's an issue of rhetoric. Hillary's platform was better for the white working class than Trump's, but it wasn't the substance that mattered. Most people didn't bother to look at the platforms, but judged by the rhetoric and Trump's angry, blaming tone resonating with a lot of people. Obama was the reverse of Trump, but he was still an outsider who could appeal to people with rhetoric.

[JaneAusten]

This to me this is the misnomer and you can tell me if I am all wet. I don't think they have given up they just haven't been top priority and I do think Clinton did address this(no one listened) in terms of re-education just plain education. We all have to first acknowledge that it's unlikely anyone is going to get a job out of high school to single handedly support an entire family. I was reading the website for Tom Prigg an ex vet who is going to run democratic in a gerrymandered red district in southwestern PA. Part of it former coal jobs, steel jobs which has been decimated. A good part of his message is education and that education is more trade and vocational(high schools don't have vocational education anymore). I'm not blaming the High Schools but many of the skills required are too advanced/complex to teach in high school. Skills required for the advanced mfg jobs that do exist and trade jobs. 

 

I think Clinton's plan did include education but the message never got communicated. I personally think until that is acknowledged it's an endless cycle of perhaps those same people drifting between democrats and republicans when those jobs don't materialize as they didn't with Reagan, Bush, Clinton(yes), Bush, and Obama.  Things like getting rid of TPP and NAFTA aren't going to solve the mftg jobs gone. Bill Clinton can talk about not giving up the WWC but what exactly did he do for them. Yes he connected to them, could talk to them, the economy was booming under his second term, but were those people any better off? I don't think so and it just got progressively worse.

Edited May 1, 2017 by JaneAusten

[Juliajms]

^ I think one thing that hurt Hillary is that the working class want jobs period. I don't think she had it in her to tell the big lies about jobs that Trump did and people just aren't ready to hear the hard truth on that front yet. Like we've said in this thread many times, no one can bring back high paying coal and manufacturing jobs.

 

It's going to take good communicators like Bill Clinton and Obama to make people understand that we need to accept other ways to fight income inequality.  More refundable tax credits and shoring up the social safety net seem like the low hanging fruit to me, but getting people to accept that is the difficulty. One thing that the Republicans are right about is work brings dignity to a lot of people. It's where a large part of their self esteem and purpose comes from. Trump got a lot of mileage from convincing people he could bring that back. And sure, maybe all of those people were stupid for believing him, but I still feel bad for them.

 

As for Bill Clinton's record of helping the lower classes, I can't claim to be an expert.  I was just starting college when he was elected. I remember it as a time of optimism, but his policies I can name off hand did more harm then good. His attempts at welfare reform seemed to have hurt the truly poor, especially single mothers. I think he's actually apologized for some of his crime initiatives because they had such a destructive effect on minority communities. Hopefully, someone else on the board remembers the good he did. I'm sure it exists.

 

Oh, and the reason I said Hillary gave up on the WWC is because there were stories that came out right after the campaign about tensions between Bill Clinton and her campaign strategists over that.  We discussed it here at the time.  They told her that the WWC had gone over to the Republicans and were never coming back (which I refuse to believe) so she shouldn't waste her time, but Bill wanted to her to at least try. Who knows if it would have made any difference in that crazy election anyway?  I want to read that book that just came out about her campaign "Shattered". I'm sure it has more details about her strategy. It's all too fresh though. I'll have to wait a couple of years to read it.

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Juliajms

[JaneAusten]

Oh yeah I agree with all of this. If you follow the liberal rednecks they basically said all of this. The handout aspect is something I believe many democrats just don't understand. And it's one big reason  the New Deal was successful. Maybe it didn't turn things around dramatically but Roosevelt and the program which put people to work gave them hope and dignity.  But we also have to acknowledge I think that the destruction of unions was probably the largest loss to working class people. And for the democrats their departure has also made it impossible to talk to those folks. I think that loss has been tremendous and people underestimate it. The article says democrats say talking to. to try and win those voters back is likely too hard. Maybe that's because the people who used to do a lot of this were the local union folks, people who worked side by side with them, etc.

 

Oh and I am not discounting Bill Clinton's words and I agree with it. But I am not sure Hillary was ever the person who could do that. Biden yeah I think so. And yes I guess Sanders possibly.  I honestly don't believe the WWC are gone. Why? Because those so called Reagan democrats no longer exist. And not any republican has any kind of solution to help them. The issue is communicating a plan and frankly the democrats have and still do now stink at it.

 

And I don't want to sound like I am discounting the mistakes in Clinton's campaign. There were many. And we all know if Trump lost, we would not be hearing about how he sucked as a candidate, etc we would still be hearing how close a race he made it. And in that case I'm not sure I would disagree with them because him winning or even losing a close race would have sent  the same message.

 

EDIT: Oh and after I wrote this I remember a point an article I read in WaPo after the election said. And it nailed it. Democrats can talk to the head, Republicans talk to the heart. It doesn't matter if the truth is twisted. Also keep the messaging simple and something that will resonate. Obama's message of hope and change, Sanders in some ways used the same approach(although not as charismatic) keeping his messaging fairly simple. Wall Street taxation, minimum wage, and fair trade(to me that's what his "bad trade deal" message translated to). It doesn't really matter if your policies will help these people if you can't communicate in a way to rally people enthusiastically to your side. (HRC).

Edited May 1, 2017 by JaneAusten

[DramatistDreamer]

So Trump invited Duterte to the White House without clearing it with the State Department, huh? Two awful men unite.

 

Trump did not clear Duterte invitation with State Department: report

 

Well, here's a clue as to the timing of the meeting.

Edited May 1, 2017 by DramatistDreamer

[marceline]

There is no State Dept. anymore. It's just Tillerson napping at his desk.

[GMac]

 

What the hell is going on in this country?  This man is a scab and he needs to account for this underhanded bullshit.

 

 

[JaneAusten]

Interesting thread on an analysis done on Trump-Obama voters and democrats who did not vote. Lots of valuable info but my one problem is they don't address voter suppression as a partial factor in turnout.

 

 

[dragonflies]

This here is why I ADORE Chelsea Clinton!

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[Roman]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fox-news-bill-shine-out_us_5903c3bfe4b02655f83d965d?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009