On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 4:55 PM, Juliajms said:

One thing that struck me is that the average Trump voter had an income of something like $70,000. So it's not like it's necessarily the people who lost their jobs were voting for him or if they did they found new ones that pay a living wage.  Once I saw that number my sympathy for these people evaporated. But at the same time more than those people voted for Trump. He couldn't have won otherwise. 

I remember reading an article from the Nation titled: What Time is it? Here's what the 2016 Election tells us about Obama, Trump and What Comes Next.

 

It was an insightful read that really goes to task about Trump and what he means and that Obama was a figure that tried to fight against Reganomics but ultimately failed. The writer likened Trump to Jimmy Carter as a "disruptor" or a disjunctive President that won't get much of anything done because he isn't aligned with his party and he thinks he can do everything himself. Ultimately we need to know where we stand as a nation. There were white working class voters who voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012, that did not vote for Hillary in 2016. Is there any way or path for the Democrats to get back things that they should have never lost in the first place? Part of the thing that was most frustrating about this election cycle was that there was an organic effort in the Democratic party that touched the same vein Trump did in regards to income equality and lobbyists - but it was snuffed out and stifled by the DNC, to their own destruction. Is the far left out of touch with "modern" America? And by how much? Do we really have to sacrifice big revolutionary changes for incremental change? Or is Trump just an inflation and representation of an America that is tired of the same old, same old - and Democrats just needed a better alternative that wasn't apart of the system?

 

These are the questions the party needs to answer and quickly. Trump will be a disaster, but what happens next cycle?

4 hours ago, marceline said:

This election had nothing to do with economic anxiety or national security. It was about Obama. These white people saw an increasingly black government making decisions about their lives and they began to realize what it means to be a minority.

 

IA.  Every other narrative that political pundits and the media have applied in order to explain Trump's victory -- that HRC was a "fatally flawed" candidate, that she and the Democratic party failed to get their message out to the nation, that Trump's voting base was tired of economic austerity and the intrusiveness of Big Government -- just doesn't wash when you examine the facts.

 

HRC won the popular vote by a significant amount.  Ergo, there was nothing wrong with her (despite garbage from the MSM and sycophants such as Little Jimmy that idiots such as yours truly bought only too readily) or with her party's platform.  (And please, Fox News, spare me the argument that she only won the popular vote because of California.  Trump only got the electoral vote because of Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.  No landslides for either candidate.)

 

Although Trump ran on (among other lies and half-truths) a promise to bring back jobs and repeal Obamacare, the truth is that people from the states who voted most heavily FOR Trump are actually the ones who also benefit the most from government-sanctioned entitlements.  Moreover, just about every financial and political wonk I've read from BOTH sides of the aisle agree that Trump cannot, in fact, bring back jobs without triggering a trade war and another recession, which will only exacerbate his voters' supposed economic woes in the end.

 

So, yes, I can't help but think that those who voted for Trump did so because he wasn't Obama and didn't promise to continue Obama's policies.

 

About the ONLY argument I will buy, in fact, is that Black and Latino males failed to show up for HRC the way they did for Obama.  But, you know, it's like what Dave Chappelle intimated during one sketch on SNL: you can't ask Black men to feel as inspired by a 70-year-old White woman as they had (twice) by another, middle-aged Black man.

39 minutes ago, Skin said:

Ultimately we need to know where we stand as a nation. There were white working class voters who voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012, that did not vote for Hillary in 2016. Is there any way or path for the Democrats to get back things that they should have never lost in the first place? Part of the thing that was most frustrating about this election cycle was that there was an organic effort in the Democratic party that touched the same vein Trump did in regards to income equality and lobbyists - but it was snuffed out and stifled by the DNC, to their own destruction. Is the far left out of touch with "modern" America? And by how much? Do we really have to sacrifice big revolutionary changes for incremental change? Or is Trump just an inflation and representation of an America that is tired of the same old, same old - and Democrats just needed a better alternative that wasn't apart of the system?

 

Frankly, what's needed now is 20-30 more years of presidencies that are AS bad as Trump's promises to be (if not worse) or just plain ineffectual and/or mediocre.  (Sort of like that period between Abraham Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt when you had all those presidents barely anyone remembers anymore.)  By then, the demographics will have caught up, and White America will have no choice but to accept another non-white President who will bring us out of the doldrums and back to being a player on the international stage.

57 minutes ago, Skin said:

I remember reading an article from the Nation titled: What Time is it? Here's what the 2016 Election tells us about Obama, Trump and What Comes Next.

 

It was an insightful read that really goes to task about Trump and what he means and that Obama was a figure that tried to fight against Reganomics but ultimately failed. The writer likened Trump to Jimmy Carter as a "disruptor" or a disjunctive President that won't get much of anything done because he isn't aligned with his party and he thinks he can do everything himself. Ultimately we need to know where we stand as a nation. There were white working class voters who voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012, that did not vote for Hillary in 2016. Is there any way or path for the Democrats to get back things that they should have never lost in the first place? Part of the thing that was most frustrating about this election cycle was that there was an organic effort in the Democratic party that touched the same vein Trump did in regards to income equality and lobbyists - but it was snuffed out and stifled by the DNC, to their own destruction. Is the far left out of touch with "modern" America? And by how much? Do we really have to sacrifice big revolutionary changes for incremental change? Or is Trump just an inflation and representation of an America that is tired of the same old, same old - and Democrats just needed a better alternative that wasn't apart of the system?

 

These are the questions the party needs to answer and quickly. Trump will be a disaster, but what happens next cycle?

Let's hope that's true.  I think Trump won because of a perfect storm of reasons, I won't even pretend to understand them all.  Sure, racism and sexism were a big part of it. Still, Trump blew by a lot of conservative white men in the primary, so that makes me suspect there was more to it. I do think a lot of people just wanted "change" and as Marceline has said, they didn't really care or think through what that meant. 

 

And yes, I do think HRC was a flawed candidate. She won the popular vote, but it seems very likely someone else would have won the electoral college without her issues.  I'm not saying that's fair, she was highly qualified, but there were a lot of people out there who simply do not like her and too many of them were democrats or at least swing voters. At one point I knew that and then as the election cycle went on I started to deny it to myself and cast all of the people around me saying they don't like or trust her as outliers. I was definitely living in a bubble for awhile there. I remember Ana Narvarro and others saying that Trump and Clinton were both running against the only people they could beat in the general and I think that's probably true.

5 hours ago, marceline said:

 

Seriously. This election had nothing to do with economic anxiety or national security. It was about Obama. These white people saw an increasingly black government making decisions about their lives and they began to realize what it means to be a minority. It doesn't matter that he wanted to create economic opportunity for them or that he didn't want them to go bankrupt because they got sick. They experienced for a few years what it's like to have people who don't look like you making the decisions and they lost their [!@#$%^&*] minds. This is the same thing that Bernie or busters did. All these white progressives got pissed when black and brown people didn't think he was the bestest thing ever so lot of them stayed home or voted for Trump out of revenge. Somebody on another board reminded me that when MLK Day became a holiday white racists couldn't bring themselves to honor a black man even if it got them a day off from work. 

 

 

This narrative is just too convenient for the "lets blame white people!" that  this forum is wont to do.   So every other election was about the economy, taxes, and whatever, but this one had nothing to do with it?   Well of course it had nothing to do with if the theory is "racism now, racism always" and then we have to make sure all facts fit that convenient and fun theory where one can blame everyone else except the people they want to be blameless.

 

I personally know women--puerto rican women--who voted for Trump because they hated Obamacare.   And have you talked to white progressives and discussed with them how pissed they are that black people didn't like Bernie?   Do you even know any white progressives?   The Bernie or bust people I know who refused to vote for Hillary never mentioned  race once.   They talked about Hillary, wars, wall street, and lying. 

 

 

And frankly, if I were to include the phrase "these black people" in any context--even the most naive and innocent one--there would be 4500 posts on this forum calling me a racist.     Keep talking in the echo chamber.

43 minutes ago, Khan said:

About the ONLY argument I will buy, in fact, is that Black and Latino males failed to show up for HRC the way they did for Obama.  But, you know, it's like what Dave Chappelle intimated during one sketch on SNL: you can't ask Black men to feel as inspired by a 70-year-old White woman as they had (twice) by another, middle-aged Black man.

How about the argument that over 25% of Latino males showed up for Trump and 13% of black males? Given that black women paid that man in the dust he deserved that's quite a high number.

1 minute ago, Juliajms said:

How about the argument that over 25% of Latino males showed up for Trump and 13% of black males? Given that black women paid that man in the dust he deserved that's quite a high number.

That illustrates so much self-hate right there, I don't even know what else to say.

4 minutes ago, Skin said:

That illustrates so much self-hate right there, I don't even know what else to say.

I know. Same with all the white women that voted for him as far as I'm concerned. Whenever I think of women voting for that man, I just feel hopeless.

10 hours ago, quartermainefan said:

I personally know women--puerto rican women--who voted for Trump because they hated Obamacare.   And have you talked to white progressives and discussed with them how pissed they are that black people didn't like Bernie?   Do you even know any white progressives?   The Bernie or bust people I know who refused to vote for Hillary never mentioned  race once.   They talked about Hillary, wars, wall street, and lying. 

 

 

Oh yes I know plenty of white progressives. I'm surrounded by white progressives and all I heard from Bernie's supporters was "Bernie marched with MLK!" Because apparently that alone was supposed to make me fall over in gratitude. You know who else marched with MLK? John Lewis. And they dragged him for filth when he supported Hillary. I watched Bernie's supporters heckle Elijah Cummings and John Lewis at the convention. They may not have said it was about race but when minorities didn't show up for Bernie they voted to punish us. And now you see Bernie out here shilling his book saying that the Dems should abandon "identity politics." That's because his base is white millennials so he sees nothing wrong with throwing minorities under the bus.

 

People aren't spray painting swastikas on the side of buildings because of economic anxiety. The Klan didn't have a celebration march because of jobs. This was white supremacy pure and simple.

 

 

Edited December 29, 20168 yr by marceline

9 minutes ago, marceline said:

 

 

Oh yes I know plenty of white progressives. I'm surrounded by white progressives and all I heard from Bernie's supporters was "Bernie marched with MLK!" Because apparently that alone was supposed to make me fall over in gratitude. You know who else marched with MLK? John Lewis. And they dragged him for filth when he supported Hillary. I watched Bernie's supporters heckle Elijah Cummings and John Lewis at the convention. They may not have said it was about race but when minorities didn't show up for Bernie they voted to punish us.

 

People aren't spray painting swastika on the side of buildings because of economic anxiety. The Klan didn't have a celebration march because of jobs. This was white supremacy pure and simple.

 

Succinctly put!  Will pundits ever acknowledge this truth?

 

In other news of delayed acknowledgements, Germany is belatedly dealing with its African Genocide.

 

Germany Grapples With Its African Genocide

 

 

And it's ironic that since Hilary lost a ton of thinkpieces have been written about the failure of "identity politics" as if "identity politics" didn't just win the election.

11 hours ago, Juliajms said:

I know. Same with all the white women that voted for him as far as I'm concerned. Whenever I think of women voting for that man, I just feel hopeless.

 

Women I understand a bit more of, there is a ton of internalized misogyny in this world, and white women can still profit and benefit from white men being in power. Arguably less so with minority women who are from a darker pigmentation spectrum. I think one of the biggest problems with this presidential race was that everyone was grouped into brackets, not understanding that white women in the mid-west are fundamentally different from white women in the urban centers. I think that was a costly measure as it looks more and more like white women backed their white men. Those women may be pissed that they can't be homemakers anymore, and that their men can't make enough to where they don't have to work and they may be able to just sit at home and worry about the house. Maybe they want it to be 1950 as well, where they didn't have to worry about being independent, and just had to have dinner ready before 5.

 

Those other individuals who voted for him, I imagine Hispanics and Latino's also seem to have a hatred for undocumented immigrants, not realizing that they could be just like them if not for a number of possibilities. I don't understand nationalist sentiments, as it's not something that is controlled for. Even though I was born in America, that means nothing to me, as I can't control where I was born. That's like holding something against someone simply due to uncontrollable factors. We can't control where we were born, what color our complexion is, if we are able bodied or if we are male, female or transgendered. I don't understand why people continue to hold this belief that one is inherently better than the other, when that is out of their control.

 

 

Edited December 29, 20168 yr by Skin

7 minutes ago, Skin said:

 

Women I understand a bit more of, there is a ton of internalized misogyny in this world, and white women can still profit and benefit from white men being in power. Arguably less so with minority women who are from a darker pigmentation spectrum. I think one of the biggest problems with this presidential race was that everyone was grouped into brackets, not understanding that white women in the mid-west are fundamentally different from white women in the urban centers. I think that was a costly measure as it looks more and more like white women backed their white men. Those women may be pissed that they can't be homemakers anymore, and that their men can't make enough to where they don't have to work and they may be able to just sit at home and worry about the house. Maybe they want it to be 1950 as well, where they didn't have to worry about being independent, and just had to have dinner ready before 5.

 

 

There has always been a contingent of women who hate Hillary for not being like them. Sam Bee did a really nice piece outlining, among other things, how other women have resented her. It started all the way back when she was First Lady of Arkansas. They hated her for using her maiden name. They hated her for continuing to work in politics instead of "baking cookies." There will always be a contingent of women who attack women for making different choices. They consider it a rejection of the values they find important. You see it with self proclaimed feminists too. Plus there's the religious misogyny which might account for some of Trump's minority vote as well. There are people who belong to churches were women are expected to be subservient to men. They were never going to vote for Hillary even if they supported Obama previously.

Well, I'm a white progressive that supported Hillary.  And many of my friends are the same and did the same.

 

CNN has me fuming right now.  Trump claiming he was responsible for over 8k jobs from two different companies.  Announced before the election.  And this morning it's all over the news that Trump did that.  GMAFB.  Will they ever EVER call him out on his bullshit?

 

Oh, hold up.  They just asked a right winger if that claim is valid.  Fancy footwork by the pundit (not answering the question) and...commercial break!

 

Im so sick of this.  The media need to grow a pair and call him out on this or else their ass kissing will result in another term.

 

 

10 minutes ago, GMac said:

Well, I'm a white progressive that supported Hillary.  And many of my friends are the same and did the same.

 

CNN has me fuming right now.  Trump claiming he was responsible for over 8k jobs from two different companies.  Announced before the election.  And this morning it's all over the news that Trump did that.  GMAFB.  Will they ever EVER call him out on his bullshit?

 

Oh, hold up.  They just asked a right winger if that claim is valid.  Fancy footwork by the pundit (not answering the question) and...commercial break!

 

Im so sick of this.  The media need to grow a pair and call him out on this or else their ass kissing will result in another term.

 

 

 

Please note that I specifically called out the "Bernie or bust" crew. Not all white progressives.

 

CNN will never call Trump out on anything. This is the same network that debated whether the Malaysian Air crash might have been the result of aliens. They hired Corey Lewandowski as a commentator. If you're looking for someone to hold Trump accountable, CNN is not the place. Truthfully, broadcast media will never hold him responsible because they care about ratings first. It's no mistake that the real reporting about Trump came from print journalists like David Farenthold and Kurt Eichenwald. The Washington Post found it's spine again after he banned them from his press pool. The NY Times came around at the last minute but IMO it was too little too late.