KNOTS LANDING

[Khan]

Except, his characters weren't as layered as the ones on "Family," nor were the actors on KNOTS as accomplished.  And I say that as one who loved both shows.

IMO, it was the addition of Julie Harris (and later, William Devane) that forced the rest of the cast to step up their game.

TBH, though, I don't know whether Don/Sid would have fit into the direction that KNOTS itself took when Peter Dunne replaced Joseph B. Wallenstein as producer/showrunner.  Even if you got Sid out of Knots Landing Motors, it's hard to determine which, if any, part he might have played in storylines like Wolfbridge or Empire Valley.

On the other hand, producers wouldn't have needed to retcon Sid's history in order to bring back Annie and have her fill the "young, sexy ingenue" role that Paige filled.

I think both Lorimar and MTM had great production values - better than those of Universal or even Spelling/Goldberg - but when it came to the quality of acting and writing, MTM's shows (both sitcoms and dramas) were hard to beat.

[DRW50]

I think in the earlier seasons Dobson was more restrained. Around the late '80s that mostly went away, which is how we got to the DIRTY COP DIRTY COP era. 

I think Lee could be very hammy, but it worked when the show knew how to focus the right way. Karen in general could be a difficult character to write for, which is one of the reasons I think the show suffers when she and Val are the only long-running women.

Other than Constance McCashin and John Pleshette, I don't think acting was a strong suit for most of the early regulars, although most of them had their moments.

I didn't care for Lilimae, but I do agree with @Khan that Julie Harris helped kick the acting up a big notch.

[Khan]

I think Lee's biggest problem - at least, in the beginning - was that she was more accustomed to working on Broadway and in musical theater, where the acting has to be more forceful and presentational out of necessity, than she was to working on television.  That, plus the fact that she was paired with an actor (Don Murray) who played a laid-back dope and therefore had to provide a sort of contrast, made her come across initially as shrill and overbearing. 

However, I watched Lee recently in the movie version of "How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying" (thanks, Pluto TV, lol) and I definitely saw a lot of Karen Mackenzie's nerve and pluck in her Rosemary Pilkington, and vice-versa.  So, I think Lee learned over time how to imbue Karen with similar qualities and modulate them enough for television so that she became more likeable - or at least more tolerable.  (It also didn't hurt to have Kevin Dobson in the cast, playing the type of crusader/underdog role he was clearly born to play; which, in turn, forced Lee to soften her performances somewhat).

Of the show's original cast, I would agree that Constance McCashin and John Pleshette probably were the best actors, followed by Ted Shackelford and Joan Van Ark.  Lee and Murray were in the middle - neither the best, nor the worst.  This, of course, left James Houghton and Kim Lankford as the weakest.

Unfortunately, as the show became soapier and less grounded, that balance shifted, and not in everyone's favor either.  Some actors - like Shackelford, Van Ark, Donna Mills - rolled with the changes.  Other actors - McCashin, Lee, Dobson, Julie Harris - stayed the course (and, in Harris and McCashin's cases, actually elevated the material).  But, as for the rest...?

Given his own background in daytime, Houghton might've been able to adjust to the "new" KNOTS.  By S4, however, Kenny Ward had become such a non-entity that making him "work" as a character was probably too hard of a task for anyone working on that show...

...Pleshette might've worked as a comic, supporting character, but, IMO, he was too much of a nebbish to work as a romantic lead OR as a villain.  (This is why I proposed pairing him off with Michelle Phillips' Anne at some point - like, around S14, when Mack needed an attorney after being arrested for Mary Robeson's murder.  I still believe that those two could have played very well off each other as a couple who maybe love each other as much as they love money).

...And Lankford - poor Lankford, lol - I know she tried hard, and I know she has her fans, even on this board, but I think that was a case of a weak actress saddled with an equally weak, and therefore expendable, character.  Even when she attempted to amplify her emotions to match the heightened storytelling in S4, with the bugged-out eyes and everything, it was hard for me to take her seriously.  If anyone needed to go after S4, it was she.

Edited July 10, 2024 by Khan

[kalbir]

(EXCLUSIVE) Joan Van Ark Reacts to the Death of 'Knots' Landing' Husband Doug Sheehan: "My Heart ... and 'Valene's' Heart ... is Broken" - Michael Fairman TV

[DRW50]

I agree with you - the only part I disagree with is Ginger, because I think Kim Lankford's otherworldly qualities and charisma along with her ties to the community helped make her interesting. I would have probably written Kenny off a few years before he actually left. James Houghton was a decent actor and very handsome, but Kenny was a worthless character who was just there to get his cock out. As Kristin was already on borrowed time anyway, I would have had her gun him down - maybe he snaps after she permanently ruins his marriage and she shoots him - before fleeing back to Dallas. Kenny then dies in a tearful hospital room scene, pledging to Ginger that he loved her all along. Then I would have paired Ginger with Karen's brother on a long-term basis (I loved Stephen Macht in the role but if he didn't want to be on more often they should have cast someone who would). Maybe Ginger and Joe could have moved away, but I'd have them as recurring figures. And there would be some inevitable drama if they were raising her child by Kenny. 

I think they made the right decision in writing Richard out when they did. There was no story left for him and he likely would have just ended up raping or beating Laura, which was the last thing the show needed. I agree he should have returned later on (aside from the brief visit for Laura's death). I like your idea about Anne. He might have made more sense as her sidekick in that iffy poverty storyline she had for about four episodes than the guy we ended up getting.

Thanks for sharing. Very sweet words from Joan.

Edited July 10, 2024 by DRW50

[kalbir]

You're welcome @DRW50

[SoapDope]

Maybe Sylvie could have killed Kenny in a jealous rage and framed a pregnant Ginger. It's interesting that John Pleshette and James Houghton admit they both disliked each other and didn't get along. Wonder what was up with that ? Maybe Pleshette thought Houghton was just a pretty boy with no acting ability. 

The writers really had no idea what to do with Kenny and Ginger from the very beginning. After the Pilot they don't show up again till episode 4 " The Lie" and then only briefly. The only episode that focuses on them in season 1 was " Constant Companion".  

Looking back at season 1 the show was written to represent middle class that the majority of the public aspired to. Even in the late 70's most of what was depicted was out of reach for most people. They all lived in upscale houses in a cul-de-sac near the ocean that would have costed a small fortune even in that Jimmy Carter era. Millennials' and Gen Z would probably see those houses as complete tear downs looking at them from their todays point of view. 

[Soaplovers]

In the real world, Val/Ben would have gone the distance.. but in soap land.. he had to go because some viewers liked them too much that the whole Val/Gary end game plan was put in jeopardy.

They had fun together on their dates, they both loved to run, he had the beach house overlooking the ocean, and both were writers.  They had more in common then she had with Gary..imho

[DRW50]

I wonder if they had issues with each other because they knew they were both on the outside of the show.

As others have mentioned, Kenny and Ginger were clearly meant to be the young couple on the show, but they just weren't needed. (Val and Gary seemed to end up playing that part more) They were the most dated part of the show even at that time. as Kenny's whole vibe (sleazy music producer) is very brutally '70s.

I do like Constant Companion, but that's more for Ginger and for Priscilla Pointer - Kenny I barely even remember. And it's a very odd story that had no real bearing on her long-term future.

[Paul Raven]

Was the fact that Gary and Val were shoehorned into the original KL concept meant that Kenny and Ginger were edged out?

Was the original concept 3 couples? With Gary and Val being the hook via a Dallas spinoff, they needed major airtime and story so Kenny/Ginger paid the price.

[DRW50]

I think you and some others have mentioned this before - that makes sense.

[SoapDope]

I remember reading John Pleshette saying Constance was stand offish towards him in the beginning and gradually warmed to him. I have a feeling his real life personality was pretty close to Richard Avery's. 

Constant Companion was pretty much a vehicle for Langford. Houghton had very little part in it. That actor that played weird Arthur was so tiny and drove a little Gremlin. I laughed when he drove Ginger home and he ran out of the car before she even got out to look at her house. Later he keeps hanging around after dinner and tells Kenny they should swap records some time.

Yes, Kenny the sleazy music producer screams 70's. I surprised Houghton didn't have a pornstache. Even if Houghton had been one of the best actors, his looks were a bit of a stumbling block. In his era most casting agents would see him no more than as a catalog model or TV commercial actor. Even the Knots writers didn't seem to trust giving him too many lines or heavy material. David Mason Daniels who played Tyler on Capitol was cut from the same cloth.

 

[Soaplovers]

I did enjoy that episode because it did give Ginger a rare time to be the focus of an episode.. especially in season 1.  

It's a shame that it didn't really provide any future story for her character even though it did provide a bit of context as to why she was a grade school teacher (to be around kids) and why she/Val did seem to bond in that first season (both forced by outside forces from being mothers as teens).

Any story idea I could have come up with Ginger was basically played by Val (i.e. difficult mother, problems with her pregnancy, having baby kidnapped, etc).

I think the show having Ginger start singing in season 3 was their attempt to make her character fit with the more soapy direction that the show was starting to undertake.  Even in season 4, she was still islanded off away from the other cast.

[Vee]

I honestly found both Ginger and Kenny painful to watch too. Could you have refashioned Ginger into a Brooke Armstrong/All About Eve type out of Melrose Place, sure, but I think the overall ensemble was way too strong at that point to be bothered.

[Reverend Ruthledge]

How did they write Kenny and Ginger out? I don't remember. Did they just move away? I just kind of remember they just weren't there anymore and nobody talking about them but that's going on a very old memory.