Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[dc11786]

It is interesting to consider what Stacey's trajectory would have been had Lily stayed. Would she have been written off as a second tier heroine? Would she go for broke and become more of a vixen? There was some early 1985 material that I came across where Stacey and Jack have decided to carry on an affair even though Jack is married to Ava. Stacey has much more depth than she had later on. This seemed to be Marland and Nixon repurposing elements of the Merill/Roger story in a more effective way. Stacey felt guilty about carrying on with a married man. She was afraid her parents would find out. She was worried what this meant with her own religious beliefs.

I think something like this could have happened with Lily / Jack / Stacey, but obviously repositioned. It might have been interesting to see Lily have been receiving psychiatric treatment, but rejecting Jack physically due to her traumatic sexual history even though I think with her alter Trista she bedded down with Curtis. Curtis could have egged Jack on that he was able to sleep with Lily when he never could and Jack and Stacey could start carrying on sexually becasue Jack "has needs." Stacey, who had feelings for Jack, would enjoy the sexual relationship, but obviously be upset that she couldn't have all of Jack. Since Curtis would want Lily, Stacey would start dating Curtis to incite jealousy from Jack with Curtis hoping this would lead to a split between Jack and Lily. To explain the motivation, I would make it clear that Stacey and Curtis didn't want to tell Lily outright about Jack and Stacey because they knew how much this would hurt Lily. Of course, Ava would learn the truth and then... the story could just keep going. 

Jack definitely seems to be like so many of the characters in the early years of "Loving," part Nixon and part Marland. I'm almost positive elements of the Lily - Jack romance were originally planned for Tara-Phil on "All My Children" with Phil murdering Nick, who was originally suppose to be a criminal type, I believe. Similarly, Jack also seems part Phillip Spaulding with the paternity secret. The difference with Jack was he knew he was adopted. He just thought his biological father was Hemsley Whitehead, who had died in a car accident with Jack's mother Linda Henderson Whitehead. His biological grandparents, Ada and Haddon Henderson, had given Jack to his mother's best friend, Ann Alden Forbes, to raise. I do think ignoring Jack's paternity after Dane left was a mistake. I feel like there was definitely story to mine with the Henderson side of Jack's family as well as the divided loyalty between Jack and his other families. 

Merrill wasn't as interesting as she could have been. The show would have been better off making Merill-Roger a B-story or lean in heavier on the guilt like they did later on with Stacey. I'm not sure even Susan Keith could have done much more with the character. Merrill and Doug were suppose to remain friendly after the broken engagement because Doug suspected one day Merrill would be ready to get married. Part of the issue is Merrill was an ambitious reporter, but I don't think there was much story to chase until Garth Slater dies. 

Shannon Eubanks manages to do a lot with a little. I've come to appreciate Callan White more in the last couple years. White is introduced in order to facilitate the Roger has died plot and is pretty much brought on to be a new character. Roger's death is suppose to alter her and she finds a new sense of self and purpose, which, since she didn't have much, was probably a smart move. Maneuvering Ann into the business world as they were introducing her half-sister, Shana, allowed a business rivalry to develop on top of the eventual sisterly rivalry that developed later on. Personally, I would have brought Roger back in the mid 1980s and paired him with Shana just to really cause a stir. 

I think there was space for the Donovans and the Rescotts if they developed the differences more. The Rescott/Sowolskys were more working class with the desire for upward mobility verse the Donovans who were heading into that middle class territory. None of the Rescotts were college professors or nurses. They were mechanics and cleaning ladies. I would have made Kate a little more slick than Rose. A quick wit, maybe even a past as a good time girl before she settled down and married Charlie and had kids. Though, given how Kate was written, yes, she basically replaced Rose. 

Lorna didn't work as a Meta Bauer type with the stepdaughter from hell. 

I think Edy Lester was intended to be an obstacle in reuniting Doug and Merrill. The Stephanie Sloane character who works with Doug in California and was investigating the murders that were tied to Jonathan Maitlane would have made more sesne as Merrill Vochek. Merrill learning Jonathan's ties to Edy would have meant Merrill destroying Doug's marriage which would have been powerful.

[allmc2008]

@EricMontreal22 Do you know

[Kane]

This channel has been uploading a ton of Quando si Ama. The first 13 videos are material from 1983, and the rest have been 1984, with the most recent ones heading into 1985. Some points of interest:

13: June takes the stand at Jack's trial and remembers shooting Garth

14: Shana's introduction

23: Ann returns after a short absence played by Callan White

25-27: Roger's death and funeral

29: I'm not entirely sure if this is Ava's introduction, but it's the first video featuring Patty Lotz as Ava

33: Jim and Shana are in a cabin during a storm, unaware that Harry is lurking around outside spying on them

36-37: Doug and Edy's wedding

45: Jack crashes Tony's motorcycle after finding out Dane is his father

50: Jack sleeps with Ava

59: Roya Megnot takes over as Ava

73: After having a nightmare about Vietnam, Mike grabs his gun to shoot himself and is talked down by Shana

76-80: Harry kidnaps Shana

81: Ann and Dane elope

88: Trisha and Gwyneth arrive

[DRW50]

Thanks @Kane 

Glad to see any version of this material.

[Beetle Bailey]

Watching the show in Italian makes it look like a telenovela.   To me, John O'Hurley and Roya Megnot are the actors holding my attention.  The problem with the show in general is that it feels so generic.   It does not have an identity like the other soaps of that period did.  To me it feels like early All My Children, Love of Life with the college aspect, Y&R with the physical attractiveness of the actors and actresses and Days with the off the wall plots.  Plus Jim and Shana remind me of the Thorn Birds.

I think the clips being uploaded are from 1984, 1985.  It seems most of the characters have been recast.  Except for Roya Megnot as Ava, I liked the original actors better.  Chris Macantel was the best Curtis, Linden Ashby has a creepy vibe to him.  Teri Keane was a warmer Rose Donovan, Dorothy Stinette has a colder prescence.  Marilyn McIntyre was better as Noreen than Elizabeth Burr, I don't think James Kiberd has the same chemistry with her either.  Shannon Eubanks had such an elegant vibe as Ann, Callan White seems like she is copying Linda Gray's Sue Ellen from Dallas.

[Forever8]

Jennifer Ashe is going to be on Alan's show on September 1st, at 3PM ET. 

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[j swift]

Reading @Kane's history of the Loving Murders really makes me appreciate how well the mystery was constructed.  My recollection was that Gwyneth was a random choice for a serial killer, and other than the clicking, there were no clues that solidified her as the perpetrator. 

However:

(1) The red herrings are not obviously innocent.  Sure, we all know that the first person arrested in any soap mystery is usually not the killer.  However, Loving included a bunch of other possible suspects that were all plausible.  For example, Curtis seemed likely, he had the means, motive, and opportunity (I delighted in the realization that since he worked at his family's cosmetics company he would have access to poison, but so would the killer).  He was re-introduced at the beginning of the storyline, so it was plausible that the writers would sacrifice the character.  And the inclusion of Neal as a suspect brings in a total last minute surprise.

(2) There were such interesting clues that I only appreciate in the re-read.  I remembered that Stacy was killed by poisonous body powder.  But, I didn't recall that the body powder container was only available to Ava and one other person, because it was in a shipment to Burnell's that hadn't been unpacked for sale to the public yet.  So, it is fascinating that Ava suspects Jeremy (who gave the body powder container to Gwyneth) which tied in the PTSD from his kidnapping by his brother. 

(3) I forgot how the victims were intertwined.  Except for Stacy, whose death is not as clearly motivated, it makes sense that Gwyneth in her twisted mind would kill Clay, Curtis, Isabelle, and Cabot.  Then, you get victims like Jeremy who were collateral damage in order to cover for the original crime.  It never feels like a random bunch of characters that they had to kill off in order to create a new show.

(4) Serial Killer stories are a soap staple, but unlike the citizens of Port Charles who have lived through dozens of serial killers with little to no repercussions, we finally get to see how a society falls apart due to trauma.  I would argue that GH's Trina has no recollection that last year there was a killer in her midst, offing many of her friends and loved ones.  But, you really get the sense that the people of Corinth are going through a life-changing event. It would have been easy to just have everyone who is going to survive stay in stasis until they move to Manhattan.  But, both the destruction of the town's icons due to the serial killings, and the relationships that grew during the mystery, propels the new soap.  For example, they logically laid the groundwork for the end of Ava's marriage to Alex. Even though they seem like an end-game couple, his suspicion of her motives, and her inability to rely on him for safety tore them apart.

Finally, I adore the reminder that the source of the clicking was established at the start of the plot, and the writers relied on the audience bias toward ignoring someone like Gwyneth in order to trick us.

Edited August 25, 2023 by j swift

[gimmetoo]

Jennifer Ashe appeared on Locher Room this week.  She shared memories of her start on Loving and fondly recalled John Cunningham and especially Anne Williams who mentored her during their heavy storyline.

[skylark]

Hi! I'm a fan of David Gale and heard that he appeared on Loving from approx. 1986-1987 playing a character named Bishop McMahon. Does anyone have any recollections, pictures, or episodes that include this character? 

Thanks so much!

[DRW50]

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This channel put up three late May 1985 and one mid June 1985 episode. They may have been around before but I'd never seen them. (over the last day they also put up a 1986 episode and some from 90-91, along with various The City episodes). 

Several of these episodes showcase the Jonathan/Keith evil twin story, which I've never watched a great deal of. Focus also goes to Ava/Jack/Stacey (Roya Megnot is a dream as always, with Jack the ideal eye candy), Mike/Noreen, Gwyn/Dane/Ann, and in the final episode, a lot of Tricia/Steve (the scenes with Steve and his father are surprisingly moving). The first episode also has a few good moments for Pamela Blair (RIP), which is timely.

Agnes Nixon will re-use the captive man and dog motif with Dante and Curtis.

There are some lovely moments in here with Cabot and Isabelle with their daughter and granddaughter that were a nice surprise. 

I sometimes wonder if this era of Gwyn is one of the reasons the show did well in some foreign countries like Italy. Christine Tudor has a certain verve as day after day revolves around her seducing or being seduced.

Dorothy Stinnette seems a bit cold for Rose Donovan, although maybe I'm mixing her up with her Another Life character.  

My main takeaway might be, not for the first time, noticing how expansive and gorgeous some of these sets were. The third episode has a shot of the Alden living room (with just Ann and Cabot) that I had never seen before and it looks incredible. The Donovan kitchen, when given one wide shot, also looks fantastic.

You also get so much music (to the point where a few scenes are muted), including a video of Lorna for Amouerelle set to Material Girl.

There's also a mention of the National Intruder. I didn't realize that already existed in the ABC daytime lineup by 1985. 

There are several beauty shots over the credits too, which I always appreciate. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by DRW50

[Soaplovers]

Had All my Children debuted in the 80s instead of 1970, Roya Megnot would have played Erica Kane.  She has that vibe, yet she has an earnest vibe that made her a unique presence.

While the episodes are beautifully shot, there seems to not been anything to set it apart from other soaps.  There seems to be more of a Have focus in these episodes as opposed to the Have nots.

Dorothy Stinnette.. she was Raven's mom on Edge of Night.  She's an interesting choice to play Rose considering the original Rose was warmer.  Perhaps she was cast as a way to make the character of Rose different then Kate Rescott.

While in the two episodes that Noreen was in, I can see why the actress playing her said that her crying at her audition after being yelled at by Joe Stuart was good practice.. because she cried in both episodes she was in.

James Kiberd was kind of hot in the mid 80s.. and it was nice to see early Shana.  Shana is basically the answer to my question about how Cecile would have fared if Susan Keith kept playing her instead of being recast with Nancy F.   Shana had the same elements/essence of her Cecile.

Lorna was not used to her full potential.. though I loved how she was used in these episodes.

Gwyn in 1985 was restless, unsatisfied and using sex appeal to get what she wants... and knowing what happened to her in 1995.. we see some elements of what she'll become in these 1985 episodes. 

[Kane]

The May 1991 episode: I don't usually enjoy Carly scenes because I find her to be such a sour and unpleasant character, but the scenes between her, Kate, and Ava joking around with each other in Burnell's were nice.

Loving always moved plots at a fast pace, but it's still sometimes surprising to me how quickly they reset the characters emotionally. Just a few months before this episode Clay was framing Trucker for involvement in the plane crash, yet here's Trucker being totally nonchalant about Clay being around and Trisha considering reestablishing a relationship with him.

[DRW50]

I was just thinking about how different Teri Keane is. I know Teri played a dark character on OLTL, but I don't think Rose is meant to be in any way dark, so the casting choices jumps out at me more. (I assume Teri wanted to leave, as she later returned, unless she was a casualty of the many producer/writer changes starting in 1984).

Susan Keith is always fascinating to me - there's something that is both vulnerable and false in her work, like a '30s tragic heroine. That worked well with Cecile when Cecile became such a bitch. Shana is at her best a complex figure and Susan fits into those grooves. It's more when she is in cookie cutter mode that her work can feel more out of place.

I would agree there isn't a great deal going on in terms of interesting characters or stories, more just style, glamour, and charismatic performers playing out familiar plots. (the Keith/Jonathan story is at least different, I suppose) I think this is one of the reasons that it was smart for the show to slowly move Ava into the anti-heroine role rather than just pure antagonist, as she could drive story but also be at the heart of it. I give Roya a great deal of the credit for making Ava viable enough for viewers to accept the shift, even if Lisa Peluso was the main one who played that era of Ava. 

I was watching an early 1984 episode, and the difference in Susan Walters' work between then and the spring 1985 episodes is striking, even if Lorna still doesn't have anything very interesting to do.

Noreen feels like such a blank (if well-acted) character. I need to watch more of what is available of her. I agree James Kiberd looked very attractive in these years. 

Carly always seems easier to enjoy when she's having fun with the family. 

I don't notice the rapid pacing as much until we get to the early '90s. When I watched a lot of the episodes from 1991 things would be built up as huge and then in no time at all were over with no real consequence, like everything with Abril. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by DRW50

[danfling]

dc11786 mentioned the departure of the character Lily Slater.

The character later returned and was recast with Britt Helfer as Lily #2.   I certainly preferred this recast.

Does anyone know why Lily was written off the show and then returned with a recast?

Britt Helfer, in seems, was brought in as someone to tempt Jack and to cause a disruption in the marriage of Jack and Stacey.    Then, when that storyline concluded, the show again wrote off the character.

[DRW50]

I uploaded about 6 episodes (one from 1988, three from 1992, two from 1995 [one being Stacey's death episode, one a few weeks before the murders started]) that were available elsewhere but not on Youtube or used to be on there and were taken down. I'll just put the link to one.

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Edited September 24, 2023 by DRW50