12 hours ago, amybrickwallace said:

That's an interesting selling point! How did the fans receive Shana/Leo?

I'm not sure how they were received at the time, but given how quickly and thoroughly they start to fade into the background once Ava is removed from their orbit, I'm guessing they were considered pretty expendable.

Personally, I wasn't a fan of Leo but I'm a fan of the pairing because it gave Shana/Susan Keith more airtime.

16 minutes ago, John said:

This was Dec 1989, Marianne was subbing for Christine

When did Elizabeth Savage take over as Gwyn

Elizabeth Savage is playing Gwyn by the December 20, 1989 episode posted above.

3 hours ago, Kane said:

I'm not sure how they were received at the time, but given how quickly and thoroughly they start to fade into the background once Ava is removed from their orbit, I'm guessing they were considered pretty expendable

I seem to remember it was agreed they had good chemistry.
The fact they faded in the background had more to do with whoever was writing the show not being interested or inspired by the characters than a lack of popularity.

As a matter of fact, that was a recurring problem with Shana who writers often didn't seem to know what to do with but I guess had enough support within the fandom and SK being enough of a name that they kept her around.

On 11/2/2021 at 8:24 PM, Kane said:

Personally, I wasn't a fan of Leo but I'm a fan of the pairing because it gave Shana/Susan Keith more airtime.

Fair enough! Thanks. 😎

Another reason that Shana chose Leo was that Leo didn't want to be a father, which meant she never was going to have to really deal with him. Shana did go to a clinic and did consider an anonymous donor, but ultimately chose Leo. The real plot contrivance was that there was some issue at the fertility clinic that had resulted in Shana and Leo going to a suite at some country inn in order to conceive Patti the old fashioned way rather than waiting for Shana's next cycle. 

The first half of 1993 is incredibly strong as tends to be the case when any headwriter comes in with a bible they have been able to write without having to also plan the rest of the series at the same time. Susan Keith claimed when she was fired in 1994 that the ratings had gone up in 1993 because of the Shana / Leo / Ava triangle. I don't know how specifically she was making that claim if it was simply on the basis of ratings or focus groups or a combination of both. I remember rereading the posts on Usenet in the late 1990s from this period and the longtime fans were very happy with the story as it injected both romance and humor back into the show. 

Leo was interesting when he was arrogant and pompous, but the point of a Shana / Leo pairing would have been to dilute that characterization. I'm not sure Leo would have been as interesting longterm without the arrogance, but I think there were angles to go with the charactes for another year or two before ultimately deciding to dispense with the character. James Carroll was very charming so they could have ultimately paired him with someone like Christine Tudor Newman, who seemed to get chemistry tested with every male in her range but was never allowed to keep any of them. A Leo / Gwyn / Clay triangle after Clay and Steffi split would have been interesting especially if Clay and Deborah were still married. 

@FrenchBug82 makes several good points about Shana. The writers didn't know what to do with her. When Susan Keith returns in the summer of 1990, it is Jacqueline Babbin who wanted the character back on the canvas. Babbin previewed Shana's return describing how the plan was to make Shana more of crusader type who would deal with a lot of social issues. Tom King and Millee Taggert wrote the airplane crash story, which tied the corporate element to the personal by having Jim and Jimmy Vochek die in the crash to the suit against the Aldens for their involvement in the situation. Meanwhile, Dane Hammond was taking advantage of the fact that the crash had caused some sort of hysterical amnesia for Shana leading to a Dane / Shana pairing. Babbin was critical to the press about King and Taggert's writing. Personally, I think the writing really only tightens up in the spring of 1991, and, by that point, Shana is mostly not a presence on the canvas. 

In the 1980s, Shana spent most of her time with Dane, Mike, Ann, Jim, Cabot, Isabelle, Jack, and Stacey. Most of these characters would depart within first few years of her return if they hadn't left already. Without these ties, there needed to more connections made to the canvas. I wish more of Shana's plot to break up Jack and Stacey's marriage while Shana was working with Clay was available. That story sounds very appealing to me even though I'm disappointed we never really got to see Jack and Stacey rip into Shana for what she did to them with Dinahlee. 

Ultimately, I think Agnes Nixon decided that Susan Keith wasn't needed as they had Debbi Morgan. Nixon gave Shana and Leo very little to do, but I wonder if it wasn't Addie Walsh and Laurie McCarthy who suggested they write out Shana and Leo as Shana and Leo are gone in June and they takeover from Nixon in August. If they had story planned for them, they could have utilized it. Also, bringing back Cabot and not having Shana around was a foolish decision. Maybe they did ask Susan Keith to make an appearance, but she was done with them by that point. I wouldn't blame her.

If these pictures are any indication, it was a fun pairing:

The Ava/Shana rivalry was so great. Even if the writers lost interest in Leo/Shana, I think it would have been worth their while to find a way to keep Ava/Shana going - it wouldn't have been difficult, either, since they could have just gone from being romantic rivals to being business rivals since Shana became the owner of Burnell's. They could have had Ava come out of her coma in '94 and learn that Shana had installed a new manager in her absence and had that spark a new round of the rivalry. They could also have roped Leo in by having him side with Ava and have his pride wounded by Shana flexing her authority and use that to create tension between Leo and Shana.

All this talk about Leo and Shana reminded me that the baby plot has its roots in this scene, where Ava and Shana argue about Ally after Shana suggests that rather than feeling like she has to choose between Casey and Cooper, Ally instead decide to raise the baby as a single woman:

Although it's never explicitly stated as one of the reasons Shana chose Leo, there probably was an element of "Yeah, well guess what bitch?" to Shana's decision to pursue Ava's boyfriend as her donor after Ava threw her dead baby in her face.

 

I know most people preferred Ava with Alex, but who did most people prefer Shana with?

 

Ok I rewatched majority of the Loving Murders but saw no clues but if U watch the video I posted that aired in June 1995, you get a big hint, even if its tonuge in cheek

More Foreshadowing

 

Those are both huge red flags, but especially the Stacey scene. You can almost see Gwyn make the decision in her head, and then she holds up the key trigger for her murderous rampages. They really did plan the story so well from the start. I wonder when exactly Christine Tudor was told - I know she said she was before others, but IIRC it may not have been immediately but after the first couple of deaths.

"Fun Fact": usually foreign versions of American TV shows keep the original character names.
But in France, "Loving" (known there as "Amoureusement vôtre") is an exception. "Gwyneth" is such an unpronouncable name for French people that Gwyneth is called Janet in the French version.
Loving had been off the air for a few years when I emigrated but it led me to being VERY confused for a while when I first started to discuss the show on the Internet.

 

 

16 minutes ago, FrenchBug82 said:

But in France, "Loving" (known there as "Amoureusement vôtre") is an exception. "Gwyneth" is such an unpronouncable name for French people that Gwyneth is called Janet in the French version.

So, do they call the owner of Goop, Janet Paltrow?

44 minutes ago, Vee said:

Those are both huge red flags, but especially the Stacey scene. You can almost see Gwyn make the decision in her head, and then she holds up the key trigger for her murderous rampages. They really did plan the story so well from the start. I wonder when exactly Christine Tudor was told - I know she said she was before others, but IIRC it may not have been immediately but after the first couple of deaths.

On The Women of Loving Reunion. Tudor says she was told  Gwyn was the killer when Curtis was murdered.

Edited November 11, 20214 yr by John

4 hours ago, FrenchBug82 said:

"Fun Fact": usually foreign versions of American TV shows keep the original character names.
But in France, "Loving" (known there as "Amoureusement vôtre") is an exception. "Gwyneth" is such an unpronouncable name for French people that Gwyneth is called Janet in the French version.
Loving had been off the air for a few years when I emigrated but it led me to being VERY confused for a while when I first started to discuss the show on the Internet.

 

 

I think that C.C. was called Channing on Santa Barbara in Italy.

6 hours ago, j swift said:

So, do they call the owner of Goop, Janet Paltrow?

😂😂😂😂😂