1 minute ago, DRW50 said:

@vetsoapfan Thanks. I'll have to check that out. I did watch the interview with Helen Gallagher, which was probably a mistake on the show's part as Helen couldn't recall a great deal, but Malcolm was on with her and was a good bridge.

Was it PFS' idea to bring in Robin Mattson as Delia? 

I've read reports that said it was the network's idea, to attract GH viewers who had been fans of Mattson's Heather Webber.

Whoever made the decision, it was a mistake. Mattson was totally wrong for the role of Dee. She was basically playing a foreign, unfamiliar character, not Delia Reid Ryan. Randell Edwards was very good in the part, but in the end, only Ilene Kristen could be the REAL Delia.

I thought Mary Carney (Mary #2) was a good actress and may have succeeded in the role had ABC not pulled the plug on her so quickly. Subsequent replacements (Kathleen Tolan and Nicolette Goulet) were terrible choices, particularly the harsh and abrasive Tolan whose Mary felt like a harridan.

If Randall Edwards and Mary Carney had stayed in the roles, I would have accepted them as Delia and Mary, but I do believe if the original actors are good, the audience prefers them.

30 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

I've read reports that said it was the network's idea, to attract GH viewers who had been fans of Mattson's Heather Webber.

Whoever made the decision, it was a mistake. Mattson was totally wrong for the role of Dee. She was basically playing a foreign, unfamiliar character, not Delia Reid Ryan. Randell Edwards was very good in the part, but in the end, only Ilene Kristen could be the REAL Delia.

I thought Mary Carney (Mary #2) was a good actress and may have succeeded in the role had ABC not pulled the plug on her so quickly. Subsequent replacements (Kathleen Tolan and Nicolette Goulet) were terrible choices, particularly the harsh and abrasive Tolan whose Mary felt like a harridan.

If Randall Edwards and Mary Carney had stayed in the roles, I would have accepted them as Delia and Mary, but I do believe if the original actors are good, the audience prefers them.

Thanks. I could definitely see that being an ABC decision. One that seemed to be ended quickly.

When I first started the RH repeats on Soapnet, I saw Tolan as Mary, and I was bewildered. Not only was she abrasive, but she could also barely speak. I know Helen Gallagher recommended her, but that isn't enough. She seemed to have better luck as a writer.

41 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Thanks. I could definitely see that being an ABC decision. One that seemed to be ended quickly.

When I first started the RH repeats on Soapnet, I saw Tolan as Mary, and I was bewildered. Not only was she abrasive, but she could also barely speak. I know Helen Gallagher recommended her, but that isn't enough. She seemed to have better luck as a writer.

I understand your bewilderment. Tolan was loud, abrasive, coarse and noticeably unable to speak coherently at times. Not to be unkind, but while Kate Mulgrew and Mary Carney were lovely, Tolan simply...wasn't. It's hard to fathom a worse recast for the show's young leading lady. 

It's like when ATWT cast Jason Kinkaid as Tom Hughes. Egads! What were they thinking?

I am Tolan's career in writing was more successful for her.

Does RH set the record for having the most recasts of original characters in the shortest amount of time?

B/W 75-80 there were 

2 Delias

3 Franks

4 Marys

3 Pats

4 Faiths

That's not counting the later multiple recasts of Siobhan.

19 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

Does RH set the record for having the most recasts of original characters in the shortest amount of time?

B/W 75-80 there were 

2 Delias

3 Franks

4 Marys

3 Pats

4 Faiths

That's not counting the later multiple recasts of Siobhan.

The endless recasts really hurt the show, IMHO.

Throughout the soap's run, we had six Franks, four Pats, four Marys, five Siobhans, four Delias, four Faiths, four Joe Novaks...and five (IIRC) Sister Mary Joels.

* including one short-term, fill-in actor for Frank and one for Delia. I count them because they did appear on-screen for plural episodes.

 

Edited May 24, 20241 yr by vetsoapfan

2 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Does RH set the record for having the most recasts of original characters in the shortest amount of time?

B/W 75-80 there were 

2 Delias

3 Franks

4 Marys

3 Pats

4 Faiths

That's not counting the later multiple recasts of Siobhan.

What's funny is in my head I always thought Santa Barbara was worse in terms of original character recasts, but not really when I actually lay it out. They had 5 CCs (4 that actually aired), 4 Santanas and Kellys, 3 Masons, Warrens, and Lakens, and 2 Joes, Sophias, Ginas, Minxes, and Teds over the course of their 8 1/2 years. But I think it's just a lot of theirs happened within the first year and a half (4 on-air CCs, 3 Santanas, and 2 Joes, Sophias, and Ginas). By that point RH had "only" had 3 Faiths and 2 Franks.

15 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Does RH set the record for having the most recasts of original characters in the shortest amount of time?

I was just pondering that some characters, like Faith and Joe, maintained their traits despite the actor.  Whereas others like Siobhan and Frank varied wildly based on their portrayal.  It is almost as if I could forgive the production for recasting if they wanted to take the character in a different direction, or if their original vision was not being conveyed. 

The Oral History's take on Sarah Felder's firing as Siobhan will stick with me.  There's a debate about the conventional wisdom that she was fired because she was not as beautiful as the other actress, versus the stories that she was tempestuous with her co-workers.  Then, Art Rutter (an ABC exec) is interviewed and innocently says that he never heard anyone say that she wasn't pretty; which pretty much confirms that she was just a pain to work with.   I thought that was one of the most clever uses of the interview format in the book. 

I agree with what's been said about tom desmond, what a strange, boring character.  The scenes where he's trying to get Mary (who's something like 8 weeks post partum) to shag him by telling her these long stories are excruciating!

 

I was convinced the actor was the guy who plays Artie (Marge's ex boyfriend) in the simpsons but turns out he's not lol.

 

On 5/22/2024 at 7:01 PM, vetsoapfan said:

I remain saddened and perplexed at how many people failed at Ryan's Hope; particularly creative personnel who (to me) had succeeded so well elsewhere. Pat Falken Smith was good at Where the Heart Is, great at DAYS and GH, and even a wonderful surprise during her short stint at TGL. Claire Labine was also a winner on Where the Heart Is and especially Love of Life. To see writers of their talent screw up an intelligent, erudite, thinking-man's soap like RH was mind-numbing.

I don't think it's fair to equate Pat Falken-Smith and Claire Labine's respective tenures at RH.  Labine created the show and was at least equally responsible for its best material.  I get why Mulgrew's peers—especially Hicks, who was amazing as Faith—didn't like their characters being in Mary's shadow, and Mary got on my nerves many times, but she was central to the creator(s)' vision for the show and KM was never boring.  And her Mary with Michael Levin's Jack was lightning in a bottle.  The less said about the recasts, the better, but that just proves to me Labine's instincts were right: to kill off Mary when KM left. 

ETA: That's not to make excuses for what Ana Alicia and other BIPOC actors who were stuck in supporting roles described in the book.  In my mind, that's a separate issue/whole nother level, but I had momentarily forgotten Alicia and Hicks spoke of being friends/allies backstage.  I was really disappointed in the shows' creators when I first read that section of the book.

As for the early '80s, Labine admitted she was burnt out by then and would have taken a breather had she not feared what ABC would do to the show without her.  And her fears weren't off-base.  She tried to incorporate what (she thought) ABC wanted with Prince Albert and the Egyptian tomb, etc. into the show RH had been, in ways that interested her.  It didn't work and that was that, but IMO those stories were not even close to the show's low point.

I don't know why Falken-Smith took the gig or what she was trying to accomplish or if she even had any creative control.  When I first read about that era (and tried to watch some of the YouTube material), she was an easy scapegoat, and from the book she clearly wasn't beloved backstage.  By all accounts, though, she had talent and knew how to make soaps successful, so it's really just bizarre.

On 5/2/2024 at 12:21 AM, j swift said:

The idea that the male author of the book about RH history referenced Mary and Jill as strident and judgement 48 years later inspired this idea.  Second and third wave feminism were not yet written about in 1989, but it would've been so interesting to have Ryan, Lizzie, and Nancy Don embody the ideas of how feminism had evolved since Mary and Jill in 1975.

I remember calling Jill "Shrill" on the SoapNet board in the early '00s, and  I've regretted that since 2016, at least...  The historical significance of Jill's character is really something, perhaps even more so all these decades later. 

FWIW I always knew Nancy Addison was a great actress and, like Mulgrew's Mary, Jill was never boring.

On 5/3/2024 at 10:46 AM, j swift said:

The “ifs” become impossible to predict under these circumstances.

Because, IF RH was not going to be cancelled, then maybe Nancy Addison would not have left when she did.  And, IF RH was to continue, we don't know much longer Tachina and Yasmeen had on their contracts.  And IF RH was to continue, we don't know if they would have made further personnel changes in production, which may have affected Ron and Michael's motivation to leave.

So, while it is fun to think about the possibilities of RH in the 90s, there are too many unknowns to predict with any certainty. 

As far as how RH would have fared in the '90s, I think recasting the younger generation when the first round of contracts came up, particularly Ryan, could have opened up new dramatic possibilities.  Depending on the recast, of course.  A new actress could have played a more grown-up, independent Ryan who acted like a daughter of Mary and Jack.  It might have helped turn the page from the Ryan/Rick era: kind of like when Kimberley Simms took over the role of Mindy on GL around the same time, and brought more nuance to the role.

Alas, with ABC owning the show, a part of me fears RH would have eventually met the same fate as Loving, perhaps around the same time: 12:30 was a better timeslot but not ratings kryptonite by any means, especially post-OJ.  Maybe ABC would have even used RH as the launching pad for The City.  If there was any possibility of Maeve becoming a serial killer and dispatching with most/all of the Ryans—so the surviving, younger characters could be free to move downtown—I can't say I'm sorry we missed that.

Edited May 26, 20241 yr by DeliaIrisFan

49 minutes ago, DeliaIrisFan said:

 

I don't think it's fair to equate Pat Falken-Smith and Claire Labine's respective tenures at RH.  Labine created the show and was at least equally responsible for its best material.  I get why Mulgrew's peers—especially Hicks, who was amazing as Faith—didn't like their characters being in Mary's shadow, and Mary got on my nerves many times, but she was central to the creator(s)' vision for the show and KM was never boring.  And her Mary with Michael Levin's Jack was lightning in a bottle.  The less said about the recasts, the better, but that just proves to me Labine's instincts were right: to kill off Mary when KM left. 

I never DID equate PFS' tenure to CL's; I merely pointed out that both these brilliant writers made (IMHO) egregious errors at the show. I wasn't comparing the writers to each other and arguing that their blunders were equal. The reason I found the gorilla and tomb stories so painful was because Labine had created a rich, erudite series, and helped elevate it to the quality of a daily stage play. Pat Falken Smith never produced quality material here. CL introduced us to multi-dimensional, intricately-drawn characters who came across as identifiable, "real" people. PFS gave us mediocre (if not downright forgettable) stock figures.

Watching a theater-like drama devolve into King Kong and Scooby Doo antics doesn't mean that CL's work and PFS' work on RH was comparable. Watching core characters get jettisoned to the back-burner for hair-models and other newbies under Smith was even worse than the fantasy nonsense, because at least CL's fantasy plots centered heavily on core characters.

Unfortunately, whatever precipitated the problems on this show, many people had their hands in messing it up at one time or another. Claire Labine and Paul Mayer, on the other hand, are mainly responsible for giving us the golden years.

 

I liked Jill...but it.was due to the actress and not the character.  

Mary was just a shrill unlikable character no matter who played her.  She put her family over her marriage...and that's a no no in my book.  Once you marry..you start your own life and family.

ABC Promo touting the "New" Ryan's Hope - as it enters the 80s

The glitz, the glamour, the romance, the excitement!

The decline in the quality of the show can endlessly be discussed, but I have nearly also said that the show decline began when Robert Costello departed as the producer or executive producer.

3 hours ago, TheyStartedOnSoaps said:

ABC Promo touting the "New" Ryan's Hope - as it enters the 80s

The glitz, the glamour, the romance, the excitement!

While the ad is cute and peak 80s soap ad, I know it had to be jarring for fans who watched the show from day one. How ABC didn't realize that trying to take this show from kitchen sink or a Reagan-era soap with glitz and glamor was boggling. 

4 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

Mary was just a shrill unlikable character no matter who played her.

I think it is worth reiterating, that there is a difference between thinking that and writing it in a book on the history of the show, as if it was a fact based on the majority opinion of the audience. 

1 hour ago, danfling said:

show decline began when Robert Costello departed as the producer or executive producer.

One of the interesting points in the book was how the entire inferstructure crumbled once the show was sold to ABC.  As a result, there were fewer voices urging restraint on creative decisions.  

Edited May 27, 20241 yr by j swift