AMC: Bianca/Babe Feb Sweeps

[Angela]

To be fair, you could have sort of use post-pardum depression for Babe as well (thinks baby is dead). Since I won't, I use the fact that they both did something wrong but one's actions was fluffed as the meaning of love, JR was made to look evil for getting custody of his child instead of actually spinning the story as Babe did something wrong 3 times (3 sets of parents she took children from, 2 she let them believe their kids drowned to death) and JR probably somewhat deserved at the least joint custody of the kid (well to be fair the kid probably should have went to Binks after all of JR and Babe's junk), and the other one went to jail and her actions didn't get spun as acts of a great big heart.

[EricaKane70]

I think she props ryan because 1)she feels that she was somehow responsible for chris's death and although ryass was revealed not to be his son, he was still special to chris and 2) ryass saved her in that awful vegas storyline. Erica has no reason to like babe or to prop her.

[dragonflies]

But it makes no sense for her to do so. She treats Ryan like he's her child, and most of the time favors him over Kendall. After the way Ryan treated Kendall for Greenlee, the Erica I have always known would want nothing to do with any Lavery's, especially Jonathan.

[Kylie]

True, you can use that arguement for Babe too. And maybe, maybe that could have played a part in it, and maybe I could drum up the same kind of sympathy for Babe that I have for Erica, had she not be the everysuffering victim. It was always, always, poor Babe.

Erica found out Dim cheated, found out Maddie was probably Dim's (or was, the details are still haze, I was so young...lol), lost her baby and then had to deliver the child she believed to be te baby her husband concieved when he cheated on her. She was told many times to get over her lose, deal with it, Dim suggested they adopt, she didn't get to grieve. And then when the truth came out, it wasn' t"oh poor Erica" it was, evil baby stealing [!@#$%^&*]. Thats the difference, Babe was a victim. Erica was a criminal. It's that simple. Yet, both of them were just as guilty.

[EricaKane70]

Please tell me your joking. Babe didn't know her child was gone for for months and when she found out she keep the child to keep jr. Whereas the only reason erica didn't give brattie back to maria is because she heard dimitri(erica thought he was the childs father at the time) say that the child was better off dead. An even before all that erica miscarried a child, and soon after, she found out about the maria/dimi affair and about the baby. So I definantly think erica had PPD, babe just wanted to keep jr.

[SteveFrame]

It is sad when I look at AMC these days. There are only a few characters that I don't actually hate or think have been ruined:

Love

Joe

Myrtle

Tad

Dixie

Bianca

Jamie

Opal

Palmer

Stuart

Lily

Olivia

Brooke

Simone

Aiden

Zoe/Zarf (at least so far)

Had Mixed Feelings for This last Year:

David

Dixie

Jack

Julia

Characters I Absolutely Hate Now:

Ryan

Jonathan

Erica

Jeff

Babe

Krystal

Zach

Colby

Sean

Annie

Amanda

JR

Josh

Janet

Sydney

Erin

Kendall

It is sad that so many in the love column aren't even featured that much. As to Zach the only time I like him is when he is with Myrtle.

[Skin]

I disagree and to say Babe is worse then Paul when Paul is the one who switched the children and told both Babe and Bianca that there children died is just wrong. Paul is the one person there that is the real villian IMO. Paul is the one who is the real "bad guy" if anyone is the fall guy for the baby switch the one true catalyst it is Paul who stole and switched the children and set the whole thing going. Babe and Bianca were both victimized in the worst way by him and he took two 19 year old girls who were pregnant in pain and worried over the children and took advantage because he saw a money oppurtunity to milk his sister for cash and extort from her. He is the worst one here and I see both Babe and Bianca as victims in that case and in that part of the story.

While Babe was wrong for keeping Miranda I can't imagine finding out my child died and then being allowed to love a child that I thought for a substantial amount of time was mine and then giving her up. Was it selfish. Yes. Was it wrong? yes. Was it a betrayal yes. Maybe if Babe was a strtonger or a bigger moral person she would have done the right thing. But in that situation I can completely understand why she wanted to do the wrong thing after finding out the kid she thought was hers isn't really hers and that her son "died".

Erica never tortured Maria? Are you flippin' kidding me? Did Erica not rub the fact that she had "Sonya" in Maria's face every time she got the chance? Did Erica not flaunt her off to Maria and tell her she had a baby and Maria didn't? Did she not willingly keep Maddie when she knew Maria wanted her? Yes she did. She tortured Maria and she wanted to hurt her for having an affair with Dimitri and it worked. Maria was broken over Maddie's death and then when they werre finally reunited she died and she never got the chance to see her daughter grow up or even spend any type of time for her! That is Erica's fault.

I am incrediablly bitter about that. Especially considering that no one even remembers it and she got away with it with no socail or emotional consequences. Atleast Babe lost Little Adam. What did Erica lose? Nothing what she gain? Jack, Bianca, adoration of the public, an early release and a cosmetic company. Bleck. Atleast Babe lost everything that mattered to her. Her son. Erica strived to hurt Maria.

I disagree. I think Babe is truely sorry for the pain she put Bianca threw and I do feel she was sorry contrary to your post she agonized over those months that she knew and when she found out that Bianca and Miranda weren't reunited she ran to Flordia to tell her.

I love Bianca and Babe. I think Alexa and Eden's chemistry is amazing and if Bianca is willing to forgive everyone for what they've done to her I don't see why it's such a big deal if it's Babe.

[EricaKane70]

My list is very short:

Love: erica, zarf(not right now since he became a babe propper though), david, vets(palmer, opal, myrtle,etc.), adam, kendall, zach, and jr.

Hate: ryan, babe, kwak, and josh.

Don't really care about: Everyone else who is not on the love list.

[Kylie]

I never said she didn't. She just didn't do it in the way that Babe did, which I found to be for more disturbing. Erica did it in Erica fashion. And she never pretended to love Maria. Or care that Maria was hurting. She was being Erica. I don't says she's right, or she didn't, I just found the whole "godmother" always having Bianca be around Bess, and knowing that was her child. Listening to Bianca grieve, and mourn, ache for her child, cry on her shoulder, all the while knowing that she had her child in her arms, is worse.

Both were guilty. I said that too. Just as guilty. But Erica was the criminal in things. Babe was light. Babe was goodness. Babe was innocent. And I do believe she was more guilty then Paul. Paul deserved to burn in hell. But the minute Babe knew that wasn't her child, and decided that she was going to rasie her as hers, to keep her husband, and lord Bianca with her own child, is when she became worse.

[Skin]

I agree with that on all points except that Erica went to jail and "paid". IMO she didn't pay for anything. She didn't lose anything. If anything she gained everything she ever wanted. She got sole custody of Bianca, she got Jack, she got her adoring public and she got another successful company. What did she lose? If anything. I can atleast say Babe lost her son. She was socially reviled and she had to live in a broke down garage apartment and couldn't even afford groceries because she had a horriable job. Add the fact that JR at several times weaseled out of her custody meetings and I would say Babe lost everything she held dear. What did Erica lose? Nothing.

I don't remember Erica being touted as a criminal. If I remember correctly Edmund got Erica out eraly of her sentence, forgave her and Maria testified on her behalf. How is that being treated like a criminal. If anything she got more love after the Babyswitch then she did before it. Babe was hated by every. single. person. In PV with the exception of Jaime's Martin side family.

[Angela]

SteveF, that's where you and I differ...

No matter how the show spun it, and a lot because the show spun it that way (fluffing), I don't see Babe or Ryan's similiar and WORSE actions as noble or great acts of love. I see it as stupid and incredible self-serving and controlling. If you really look at what Ryan told Kendall when he decided to take her child and add him having the kid strolling the park with minimum security and using the kid so he can drug people - his reasoning was stupid (illogical), self serving and controlling. Kendall has to thank him for it. Zach has to say You're right, sir. Kendall gets her kid taken from her, gets told she's wrong by everybody and gets told she's not worthy of love by Ryan (imagine if she had used her child to drug somebody like him) for getting caught not telling Ryan one of his anonymously donated sperm his living with him and her mother.

I complete agree with you in that I didn't get Kendall's reasoning, I rolled my eyes at Kendall more than a few times during this story mostly because I didn't get her thinking Ryan is a catch. I can blame the fact that Kendall has to make and prop Ryan story no matter what to keep him on the frontburner thanks to McTavish (something she doesn't really need to do, she typically has and can have good story elsewhere), but I don't want to blame writing - since the writing is the writing and you have to accept it as part of these characters once it's done (from Babe to JR to Aidan to Krystal to Ryan). I accept that every character on this show has to do illogical things for periods because plot comes before character on this show big-time - Zach with Dixie, Dixie with Zach, Kendall with Ryan, Tad/David with Babe, etc... - and I get over it despite ambiguous writing because in some cases it was pulled back enough (acted out in a way) for me to say while that was bad writing and story it was acted out in a way and pulled back enough for me to disassociate it from being permanent damage to this/that - and in other cases I look past characters doing stupid and or illogical things because I've known the character for so long (Tad).

In Babe and Ryan's case, it's a case of the writers fluff their actions so much and so often that it takes away any sympathy I can have for them. It's not the actors fault so much, but oh how I'd love to know an AMC world where the writing doesn't do this for them cause it'd actually do as much for their characters as it'd do for the show (it would improve things).

[EricaKane70]

Erica went to prison for 4 months, opal/palmer erica's best pals sided with maria, a rock was thrown through erica's window in disgust of her kiddnapping brattie, she wasn't allowed to see binks(but travis later changed his mind when binks ran away, soon after she had anorexia where erica wasn't allowed to see her for years), Jack did turn his back on her but sided with her when she pleaded guilty to kidnapping brattie, and erica was only released because her child was dying from anorexia and edmund put his own feelings aside to save her. To say nothing happened to erica is WRONG. An the only reason erica got enchantment back is because haley was driving it into the hole. Babe lost custody of her son, but was practically with him all the time, what kind of punishment was that?

[Skin]

I guess that's the difference. I thought Erica was worse because she was so cold and cruel and seemed to delight in Maria's pain. Where as Babe behind closed doors actually seemed remorseful for hurting Bianca and didn't like what it was doing to her and she was just to selfish to own up to the truth and actually deal with the fact that her son died and that Bess wasn't her's. Erica was just a heartless [!@#$%^&*] who liked seeing Maria weep.

Well just have to disagree. I can never see Babe as worse then Paul Cramer the man who took advantage of two 19 year old girls and stole there children, switched them and set the whole thing into motion and then laughed about it and used his sister for a moolah oppurtunity.

[Skin]

So what she lost Opal? That apparently didn't last too long since they were as thick as peanut butter what a few episodes later. Seeing as Opal and Erica never talk anymore I can harldy see that as a huge loss.

A rock was thrown! call the cops.

What did she gain: Bianca went to go live with her and never saw Travis ever again. (permant custody of Bink's her favorite daughter who she loved more then life). She gained the love of her life Jack and he was there for her day in and day out. An early release from prision and her company back.

Let's look back at the con versus pro's in the situation here objectively. She had maybe one bad thing happen to her. (Opal sided with Maria) and she gained everything else she ever wanted. Yeah she paid.

[Angela]

Skin, lol. We need argo here for you.

BTW, I'm enjoying debating with you all and agreeing with the rest of you. It'd been a long time since I posted this much. I don't like to post this much, lol