kalbir

@j swift I had mentioned that both Dina and JoAnna had abandoned their families and re-entered their lives years later. With TL's Jack, I think he was Dina's favorite child and his mother abandonment issues resulted in his playboy behavior and seeking his father's love and approval, but of course messing up while doing so and not being able to live up to his father's legacy. I don't remember TL's Jack wanting to be a parent. I seem to recall him setting up an appointment for a vasectomy not long after Patty approached him about having a child. Patty got pregnant anyway but miscarried. Albert walked out on his family and left a pregnant Cora unable to care for Victor and the child on the way, that's why Victor was placed in the orphanage. Victor was abandoned by both parents. I can't recall if Cora raised Matthew or if he was eventually placed in the orphanage.

Calling it now, Nick is going to go back-and-forth between Sharon, Phyllis, and Chelsea until Y&R ends.

@DramatistDreamer @soapfan770 You're welcome. Glad you enjoyed the write ups. From what I've seen/read of 1980-1982 Y&R, it was not an easy transition between the 1 hour expansion, time slot changes, ratings dropping, cast changes, EP change but Y&R managed to survive and it would lead to them thriving for the most part from 1983-1998.

I recently came across the 1997 book Worlds Without End: The Art and History of the Soap Opera. In the book Bill Bell comments on two pivotal events in Y&R history. I hope nobody minds that I quoted his comments in full. On Taking Y&R to One Hour "Once assured that Y&R was a runaway hit, CBS inevitably wanted to talk to me about an hour. I'll spare you the gruesome details, but after months of enormous pressure from the network and the affiliates, I somehow found myself committed to doing the hour show. What ultimately happened is that our ratings went down and it took us three years to become number one again. How could this have happened? One reason is that when we went to an hour, we had a number of cast defections. The issue of performing in a one-hour show had not been part of their contracts. And some of our leading actors understandably felt that their popularity on Restless would open the door to fame and fortune in nighttime or films. Obviously we had to recast prime characters in our two core families, the Brooks and the Fosters. It was then that I decided if even one more actor from these families decided to leave the show, I'd have to do something radical. A short time later, Jaime Lyn Bauer, who played Lauralee Brooks and was one of the very few original cast members remaining, came to me and said she was physically exhausted, which she was, and that she wasn't going to renew her contract when it was up in August. This was February. There was no other answer. I had to replace what had been the core of our show since its inception. Two complete families. About eleven actors in all. But replace them with what? As I studied the remaining cast, I realized I had two characters - Paul Williams, played by Doug Davidson, and Jack Abbott, played by Terry Lester - both of whom had a relatively insignificant presence on the show. They didn't have families. Hell, they didn't even have bedrooms. But these became the two characters I would build our two new families around. I remember the head of daytime for CBS advising me "with the strongest possible conviction" that I was making a grave mistake by replacing these families. There was a great risk, no question, but my conviction was that it could be even more disastrous if I didn't. I immediately began establishing new families while interweaving the old. We made this transformation without losing so much as a share point. In fact, our ratings and share points kept building, with our two new families emerging as the dominant characters on the show. This is where Victor Newman came into the picture." On Victor Newman "You are not going to believe this, but this character, who today is daytime's number one romantic lead, was to be a short-term noncontract role. It would last between eight to twelve weeks, at which time he was to be shot by his beautiful wife. In short, Victor Newman was in concept a despicable, contemptible, unfaithful wife abuser. When I saw Eric Braeden's first performance - the voice, the power, the inner strength - I knew immediately that I didn't want to lose this man. He was exactly what the show needed. Not the hateful man we saw on-screen, but the man he could and would become over time. The first thing was to get Eric under contract, but he didn't want to go under contract. He was very uneasy about television, the daytime serial, the people he worked with, the producers. This was a whole other world for Eric. And Eric is a cautious man. Over time, Eric became more comfortable with the medium, and more trusting with the producers, and agreed to sign a contract. If memory serves, it was for six months. I immediately changed my story in the hope of salvaging this character. The rest is history."

I don't think the actor is even 30 years old, so he's almost a decade younger than Melissa Ordway. Funny thing is that in real time Chance is 12 years older than Abby. When adult Chance returned in 2009, I don't remember if his age was established, but since he served in Iraq then worked as a detective so he had to have been past 21. I know John Driscoll was 28 at the time.

@soapfan770 Agree, Lillie Belle Barber was the last of the messy matriarchs. One of the most powerful scenes on 1990s Y&R was the Dru/Lillie Belle confrontation where Dru learned she was the result of marital rape.

Mary Williams was messy in the sense that she attempted to control Paul's love life. Nobody was good enough for her #1 son.

Today (December 2) is Britney Spears' 40th birthday. Given all she's gone through the last 15 years, I'm honestly surprised she made it to 40. Music-wise, Britney hasn't had a big solo hit since Hold it Against Me, and that was over 10 years ago. In this era of Spotify and TikTok, is a late career comeback in the vein of Believe-era Cher possible?

Budget mode has set in sadly.

@Broderick Allison was the poor man's Vanessa. Bill Bell's best Vanessa re-creation was Stephanie, and we've already discussed the Vanessa/Stephanie parallels in the B&B From the Beginning thread. Surprisingly JoAnna's initial run was longer than Dina's. Marla Adams arrived in 1983 and was gone in 1986, just before the EP switch from H. Wesley Kenney to Ed Scott, while Susan Seaforth Hayes arrived in 1984 and lasted until 1989. I think Susan went back to Days not long after her Y&R run. Would we consider 1990s-now Jill and Nikki in the wealthy messy matriarch category?

@Broderick Once again, I am impressed by your insights. @Paul Raven Let's look at the 1980s messy wealthy matriarchs: Allison, Dina, JoAnna. Allison attempted to control her son Kevin's love life. Dina and JoAnna both abandoned their families and re-entered their lives years later.

@Faulkner I must have missed it. Hopefully during the Christmas episodes the Abbotts remember John. Jerry Douglas deserves at least that much for all he contributed to Y&R for 24 years.

Do you think we'll get some type of memoriam for Jerry Douglas? I don't think I saw one during November.

@Broderick How would you rank Y&R's original messy wealthy matriarchs Jennifer, Katherine, Vanessa?

@divinemotion I wouldn't compare B&B to Dynasty. B&B started on CBS when primetime soaps were past their peak. If any daytime drama tried to be a daytime Dynasty, I'd say it was Santa Barbara; it's NBC premiere in 1984 overlapped with Dynasty at the height of it's popularity. In the 1997 book Worlds Without End: The Art and History of the Soap Opera, Bill Bell Jr. comments on B&B and Y&R around the world. He mentions B&B was a big hit in Italy and Holland while Y&R was not, but the opposite was the case in France and Turkey. He also mentions there wasn't a country where both shows were a big hit; I thought Australia would fall into that category.

I can't believe it's been almost a year since the 12000th episode.

‘The Kings Of Napa’: OWN Reveals Premiere Date & First Teaser – Deadline I'm getting an Empire with grapes feeling from this.

First half was good, second half I felt was the start of B&B tanking. That's why in the fall Sheila returned and Lauren was brought over from Y&R, but 1996-1998 they weren't in each other orbits as much.

EB dropped an F-bomb in a scene? I don't remember that at all. How did that get past the censors? It was a good read. With CLB having been gone for four years after his initial run, I thought the anniversary celebration for him would be his 25th next spring. If Y&R is counting anniversaries from first episodes, looks like next summer we'll be celebrating 40th anniversaries for both Eileen Davidson and Beth Maitland.

@soapfan770 I feel like 11.3 AM was used mostly in the mid 1990s to early 2000s but I don't recall the last time it was used. I remember someone posted here that 11.3 AM should've been used during the Billy/Phyllis affair.

I'm pretty sure that track was used in those scenes 😄

@Broderick Once again, good insights. I'm not a literature connoisseur so I wouldn't have made the connection between Le Morte d'Arthur and the four Ls quad. From clips/episodes I've seen and what I've read of the four Ls, I noticed the contrasts between the siblings: Lance was suave and sophisticated (although John McCook has never appealed to me and I don't find him convincing as a romantic leading man, and that's on both shows) while Lucas was rugged and elemental; Leslie was a kind hearted heroine while Lorie was a jealous vixen. I also think the four Ls quad got derailed when Lance was recast with Dennis Cole; he was not a very good actor from what I've seen. During the Prentiss Industries takeover storyline, there was a scene of Lance and Victor and I could not take Lance seriously as a rival for Victor. Of course during the big cast purge of 1982 the quad came to an end without much of a resolution. Bill Bell did use some of the character elements of the four Ls in the B&B quad. Ridge was supposed to be suave and sophisticated (Ronn Moss is another that has never appealed to me, in both looks and acting) but I didn't get a rugged and elemental vibe from Thorne. Caroline was a kind hearted heroine and Brooke was a jealous vixen. The B&B quad also got derailed by a recast (Thorne with Jeff Trachta), and by an early announced departure (Joanna Johnson) and a real-life pregnancy (Katherine Kelly Lang). Bill Bell ended that quad quickly with Ridge and Caroline's marriage and then set up Brooke/Eric and Thorne/Macy.

@Taoboi EB's got the social media game on lock. I can respect that.

@Broderick I like your insights. What are your thoughts on the quadrangles?

@ChickenNuggetz92 I don't think that music cue was on the 1998 soundtrack. 11.3 AM is my favorite track on the 1998 soundtrack. Whenever that played on the show, we knew something dangerous and forbidden with consequences was about to take place