EricMontreal22

Halfway through, my two big take away--is I LOVE the attention paid to the costume designers, something I had never thought about at all. And also, the chapter on reboots completely ignores the AMC and OLTL reboots (which I am a huge defender of) so I was disappointed in that... (I mean, yeah, I knew the Dallas reboot sucked...)

How many other people on here watched Looking? I was a big fan, but I remember the huge backlash against the show, particularly from the gay community. A friend of mine has written an article that I think is worth reading for those who liked, or didn't like, the show, which now seems like, despite Heated Rivalry, something that would never be greenlit again. https://filmint.nu/the-beauty-of-looking-andrew-haighs-queer-television-aesthetic-david-greven/?fbclid=IwY2xjawSR9Z1leHRuA2FlbQIxMQBicmlkETFxZlFQSmtqdWVpd0xVWlNwc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQQMjIyMDM5MTc4ODIwMDg5MgABHsGGiqBdXEQJzzBi2jeQvCQvqaBirC8A7Jc3I7xzWYgydl-cDl4phl_T8xXt_aem_WHrvLMqUe1gZ1IYO8OznrQ

BTW both authors mention the SON forum so... I suspect they are or at least were here at some point (...)

One thing that has been interesting to listen to but also kinda loses me is co-author Charlotte Druckman believes Falcon Crest to be the greatest primetime soap and has a chapter about why that is (and she does give good reasons.) And out of the major primetime soaps, it's the one I know virtually nothing about except for the premise and cast.

Full disclosure, because I have no real disposable income at the time, I managed to download it as part of a free Audible trial ;)

Right--when you read about the ABC writers workshop program (whatever it was called) they would send finders/feelers looking out everywhere, at new play festivals and contests, etc. Now it does seem to just be insular--soap writers come from soap viewers, often even it seems that being their only qualification. (No offence to Giddens, or Carlivati for that matter, but did they have ANY experience writing in any other format?)

Yes, this. Again, while at the time when the AMC 1995 episodes were airing I think fans were already calling out the show for losing some of what made it so special. And yet, watching now, we still have SO many of these wonderful types of scenes that add nothing to the plot, but add tremendously to the sense of a lived reality (and, with the right actors, are enjoyable to watch.) Stuff like Peggy (played by the wonderful Ann Meara) and her interactions while working at Wildwind, Myrtle mocking Marian and Enid Nelson when they come into her dress shop, Jackson talking about how much he enjoyed the Summers as a kid in the South, just to name three moments in the episodes that aired this week. I have no idea why these types of scenes and dialogue seem so absent from soaps (and have for a long time now,) because they really don't seem difficult to do. So I can only assume that the powers that be feel they are a waste of time now...

Right. Watching so much of 1995 AMC, and this might be more in hindsight, Erica still works for me even if she is not "acting her age." But she works because she is still at this point the exception on the soap, is completely in character (some people simply do NOT mature, especially if they never have to,) and it's even pointed out by other characters. At some point characters like that almost became the norm (and certainly by the time we had Erica becoming a Vegas showgirl it became outlandish.)

The one issue re finances about This is Us that I remember people bringing up though was how easily these characters could fly around the country with zero thought about money. To be fair, maybe this was a necessary evil just to tell the stories... I'm a huge huge fan of the Herskovitz/Zwick dramas thirtysomething, My So-Called Life (not created by them, but by former thirtysomething writer Winnie Holzman, who must be filthy rich now thanks to Wicked, but with them producing and much of the same team) and Once and Again. Again, not really soap opera as they focused on the mundane, but still soap adjacent. And I do think they did as good a job as I've seen on American TV at addressing money issues, the disparity between friends and relationships with people of different economic/social classes, etc... (I remember as a teen watching My So-Called Life, my mom got hooked watching with us and she said one thing she most liked was that the house sets were messy which she had never seen on tv before :P )

I'm hoping others are reading this and maybe we can have a discussion. Like most soap opera books I've come across, there definitely are a lot of issues I have with it so far, and yet, I think it is worthy of reading. So far. Here's my FB post on it: I've been having more issues with my sciatica this week, so have largely been in bed. But to occupy me, I've been listening to the audio of this book, which my friend Mike Poirier recommended. So far, really enjoying it. It's written in an engaging, colloquial style. And so far, really covers a lot (and not all fawning--if anything, despite being written by two obvious fans of soap operas, sometimes I think they might be a bit too hard on them, in particular the chapter about if soaps actually are progressive or feminist.) I did find one mistake (while talking about All My Children they say that Agnes Nixon created three other soaps... I suppose if you suggest that Nixon co-created As the World Turns as some people do, then there might be some truth there?) Anyone else reading, or "reading" it? https://wwnorton.com/books/9781324075561

In regards to abortion and how post 2000 or so the shows basically stayed completely away from it (and certainly would never use the word.) It sounds funny to say I loved an abortion story, but I did love how with the Hulu All My Children they finally addressed abortion in a relatively honest and layered way (and despite showing different sides of it--in this case Angie not approving of the act itself--they still went through with the abortion because it was right for the character of Cassandra and her situation.) That would NOT have happened at that time on a network soap. Despite the fact that 20 years before, in the early/mid 90s they HAD told just such a story on AMC on ABC with Julia. It's depressing to think how these shows have regressed with what kinds of stories they can tell, and become essentially more conservative when really, to bring in and keep new viewers they should be going the other way.

I love Agnes Nixon, as everyone knows, but she certainly went several times to the tired trope of rehabilitating a "bad" character by having them raped...

Fascinating thread. I have more to say once I've thought about it more, but one thing about revisiting so many episodes of AMC from 1995 via Pluto TV Canada that does stand out is that even though by the mid 90s Pine Valley was centred around three extremely rich households (the Chandlers, the Wildwind group and, though featured less heavily by now, the Cortlands... I suppose Phoebe Tyler is still around as well, although the Tylers were no longer much of a presence,) there still was an attempt to show a lot of middle class and even poor characters and families. It's debatable how well this is handled, but looking back at it in hindsight it certainly IS still a focus that I think even ten years later would be lacking on most soap operas, including AMC. And I do find it frustrating when suddenly you have a show built around characters where money never seems to be an issue at all, etc.

Those might be my favourites too. As a soap opera fan (even though it's about the UK soap world) I would recommend his previous series, Nollie. I'm genuinely surprised no N America streamer has picked up Tip Toe yet... It feels inevitable given the praise the series is getting, but who knows?

That's definitely him. The bible I've seen seems to be the work of Agnes Nixon--so whenever changes were made (and many were) I wonder if that was Marland...