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Which death of a character was totally unnecessary and damaging?


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19 minutes ago, FrenchBug82 said:

Yeah I will never understand why they decided to go that route with Aiden. It was already a miracle they had found a character that most people were OK having Hope paired with. Why ruin it? 
But fundamentally j swift IDs part of the problem: leaving Bo out there was leaving a huge Damocles sword over whatever pairing they could try for her. They should have unplugged that cord a lot sooner.
 

I think everyone still had hope PR would be back. It was a weird limbo for awhile.  DC is fairly charming he just always is the death knell for any soap, but I liked them.  KA isn't without her charms but she is so much tied to Bo in a way I just don't think other Days supercouples are.  She never was not tied to Bo and never really had her own story in the way Marlena did.  Even Jack and Jen exist okay on their own, even though I think Jack is way too tied to Jen.

16 minutes ago, Vee said:

 

Because they worship Galen Gering BTS and banked on those two being gangbusters.

 

I again don't think Rafe/Hope are bad on paper.  I don't think the actors had the worst chemistry either, but they had the worst stories.  And Hope was basically fighting her own nieces for his attention.  Gross.

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5 minutes ago, carolineg said:

I again don't think Rafe/Hope are bad on paper.  I don't think the actors had the worst chemistry either, but they had the worst stories.  And Hope was basically fighting her own nieces for his attention.  Gross.

 

Rafe is a super obnoxious guy they shoehorned into the show, though. And on paper, for me, it's just another cop. Thrilling! I'm not saying Cosgrove was any great shakes but at least they had some fans. They have never invested in Kristian solo, whereas Bo soared with both Billie and Carly.

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3 minutes ago, Vee said:

 

Rafe is a super obnoxious guy they shoehorned into the show, though. And on paper, for me, it's just another cop. Thrilling! I'm not saying Cosgrove was any great shakes but at least they had some fans. They have never invested in Kristian solo, whereas Bo soared with both Billie and Carly.

I get that.  But Rafe to me was 1000 times less shoehorned and obnoxious than Daniel, so it didn't bother me as much.  Rafe is pretty benign to me.  I don't have strong feelings for him one way or another.  I liked him and Sami in the beginning, but I have no real investment in him.  I think it's odd they tried Kristian/Hope with people like Franco, Jude, John, and Justin while Bo was around, but I think it's due to Kristian's stints.  Bo had a chance to explore other options without the albatross of Hope when Hope was presumed "dead".  KA always was tied to Bo, basically her entire run and by the time he left it was very hard to invest in a pairing with someone else after all they had been through with children and grandchildren etc.   It would be like Marlena taking up with someone brand new if John died again.  It's just not believable as a true love even if Hope was obviously much younger.  The supercouple cross they bear is still the same, but Marlena had a whole life before John, while Hope has only really been paired with Bo as an adult.  

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1 hour ago, carolineg said:

Rafe is pretty benign to me.  I don't have strong feelings for him one way or another.  I liked him and Sami in the beginning,

While I am a Lumi guy, Rafe and Sami worked at the beginning indeed. But otherwise I don't care for Rafe. I don't have any rage towards him because I never felt him being oversold to me, so in that way I disagree, but I also never really saw anything interesting coming out of him nor did any of his multiple pairings work for me. 

 

2 hours ago, Vee said:

I'm not saying Cosgrove was any great shakes but at least they had some fans. 

I wouldn't have qualified myself as a fan but I was pleasantly surprised that they managed to give her a love interest that was likeable, with whom she has some chemistry and that worked. That was so unexpected to me that I would have wanted them to nurture this.
And I like Cosgrove even though all his multiple soap stints have sucked - mostly because they always cast him in the blandest recasts possible.
 

1 hour ago, carolineg said:

 I think it's odd they tried Kristian/Hope with people like Franco, Jude, John, and Justin while Bo was around


If the story of what happened with Jude behind-the-scenes is true, I'd like to think maybe her inability to get another steady love interest but Bo might have been karmic retribution.

Chemistry is something that is hard to find so there is a part of it that will never be explained by anything other than bad luck but I will say, and I say that as someone who wishes she was still on the show and firmly recognizes her as important to the show, I think a part of it was Kristian A. herself. She is not that strong of an actor that she managed to give Hope enough layers that she could survive without the hook of the Bo supercouple IMO.
Many actors and actresses have suffered from and bemoaned the curse of being in a supercouple because it hems in the writing. But you could at least see them struggle away from that and give it their all acting-wise so that there'd be more to their character.
KA was exciting at the beginning but I really think she got comfortable with the Bo thing until it was too late. She wasn't trying to sell any alternative when he was there and she never tried to make Hope a real full-fledged character.

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54 minutes ago, FrenchBug82 said:

While I am a Lumi guy, Rafe and Sami worked at the beginning indeed. But otherwise I don't care for Rafe. I don't have any rage towards him because I never felt him being oversold to me, so in that way I disagree, but I also never really saw anything interesting coming out of him nor did any of his multiple pairings work for me. 

 

I wouldn't have qualified myself as a fan but I was pleasantly surprised that they managed to give her a love interest that was likeable, with whom she has some chemistry and that worked. That was so unexpected to me that I would have wanted them to nurture this.
And I like Cosgrove even though all his multiple soap stints have sucked - mostly because they always cast him in the blandest recasts possible.
 


If the story of what happened with Jude behind-the-scenes is true, I'd like to think maybe her inability to get another steady love interest but Bo might have been karmic retribution.

Chemistry is something that is hard to find so there is a part of it that will never be explained by anything other than bad luck but I will say, and I say that as someone who wishes she was still on the show and firmly recognizes her as important to the show, I think a part of it was Kristian A. herself. She is not that strong of an actor that she managed to give Hope enough layers that she could survive without the hook of the Bo supercouple IMO.
Many actors and actresses have suffered from and bemoaned the curse of being in a supercouple because it hems in the writing. But you could at least see them struggle away from that and give it their all acting-wise so that there'd be more to their character.
KA was exciting at the beginning but I really think she got comfortable with the Bo thing until it was too late. She wasn't trying to sell any alternative when he was there and she never tried to make Hope a real full-fledged character.

 

I don't really think KA is a bad actress at all.  I think she's on par with AS, MR, or DH.  None of them are great.  KA is gorgeous and has a likable enough screen presence, but she reminds me of Nadia B.  Very pretty, likable, but with out Bo she would have ended up somewhat adrift like Chloe without a true motivation.  She has the ability to create chemistry with others but schizo writing keeps her from truly connecting.  Clearly Hope connected with an audience, but without Bo she suffered so much in the way that Kayla or Marlena never would have.  I also think KA lacked a bond with her on screen kids in the way MB and DH did and I don't think that helped at all.  I mean, she seemed to barely tolerate Claire which was very noticeable and very off putting.  I get that she was young to be a grandmother, but Ali Sweeney was like 35 when Sami became a grandma and she sold it.

Edited by carolineg
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Since the 90s, Kristian has projected what she appears to be in real life - as @DRW50 once said, a tough customer, no bullshīt. She found her niche in that famous guest role on Melrose Place as Lauren the hardboiled madam, and when she returned to DAYS she was sophisticated, cool and had an edge. When they make her play stupid or the loving earth mother it doesn't work, which is why they kept going back to the Princess Gina well, John, etc. That is Kristian's actual wheelhouse as a grown woman, and that is part of why (like Eileen Davidson on Y&R) it is so hard to find a man who can match her strength and energy.

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4 hours ago, carolineg said:

 

I don't really think KA is a bad actress at all.  I think she's on par with AS, MR, or DH.  

I don't think KA is a bad actress. I want to clarify that wasn't my point. I think Sweeney is better than the other three but yeah they are absolutely on par with each other.

It is just that she isn't that good of an actress that she manages to give something to her character that isn't on the page. And that's hard to do for any actor!

But that's why the excuse of "They write her as a goody goody" doesn't wash with me entirely. It is absolutely true that they write her poorly - and that when they give her things that are better fits, she does give more interesting, if uneven, performances. But it is also true that when they don't, she doesn't manage - or seek to - to transcend the material. She just plays what's on the page which makes her an adequate professional but not enough to overcome an iconic supercouple like Bo and Hope.
And incredibly talented performers have failed too to escape that curse! So it wouldn't be the *only* reason. But I don't think it is unfair to say that an actress who plays a role for thirty years can be judged on whether the character ever managed to shine on her own. 
And Hope was ever only as interesting as her relationship with Bo. 

As a side note, while I certainly would not have wanted a romance there, I liked KA's chemistry with Stefano better than his chemistry with Marlena. 

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1 hour ago, FrenchBug82 said:

I don't think KA is a bad actress. I want to clarify that wasn't my point. I think Sweeney is better than the other three but yeah they are absolutely on par with each other.

It is just that she isn't that good of an actress that she manages to give something to her character that isn't on the page. And that's hard to do for any actor!

But that's why the excuse of "They write her as a goody goody" doesn't wash with me entirely. It is absolutely true that they write her poorly - and that when they give her things that are better fits, she does give more interesting, if uneven, performances. But it is also true that when they don't, she doesn't manage - or seek to - to transcend the material. She just plays what's on the page which makes her an adequate professional but not enough to overcome an iconic supercouple like Bo and Hope.
And incredibly talented performers have failed too to escape that curse! So it wouldn't be the *only* reason. But I don't think it is unfair to say that an actress who plays a role for thirty years can be judged on whether the character ever managed to shine on her own. 
And Hope was ever only as interesting as her relationship with Bo. 

As a side note, while I certainly would not have wanted a romance there, I liked KA's chemistry with Stefano better than his chemistry with Marlena. 

IA she had good chemistry with JM and DHim.   They were decent together both pairings.

 

But I would disagree she plays thing exactly on the page.  That would require her to be closer to her onscreen children.. And outside of moments with Jason Cook, she has never been maternal at all.   She is a very cold actress, similar to RC as Skye, but she becomes so warm with Bo.  It's just a shame she never found another good screen partner.  And I will give her credit, she was very good with Zack's death.  

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7 hours ago, carolineg said:

IA she had good chemistry with JM and DHim.   They were decent together both pairings.

 

But I would disagree she plays thing exactly on the page.  That would require her to be closer to her onscreen children.. And outside of moments with Jason Cook, she has never been maternal at all.   She is a very cold actress, similar to RC as Skye, but she becomes so warm with Bo.  It's just a shame she never found another good screen partner.  And I will give her credit, she was very good with Zack's death.  


As a huge RC fan I am going to leave this unrespondedd so not to derail the conversation lol but let me just say the comparison doesn't work for me. I understand the coldness argument but the acting levels are completely different.
But otherwise I agree - both on her lack of maternal warmth and Zack's death which is probably her best moment on the show. 

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1 hour ago, FrenchBug82 said:


As a huge RC fan I am going to leave this unrespondedd so not to derail the conversation lol but let me just say the comparison doesn't work for me. I understand the coldness argument but the acting levels are completely different.
But otherwise I agree - both on her lack of maternal warmth and Zack's death which is probably her best moment on the show. 

 

Lol.  For sure RC is in a different league as far as actual acting skills.  RC is just someone I find very cool in her portrayal of Skye, which works better for a character like that than Hope.  Anyway, I am not a fan of RC/Skye so moving along lol...

KA lost a lot of her initial charm and it was clear she was phoning it in for years.  I am fine with her leaving.  Outside the Ciara story, I don't miss her at all.  My only wish is that she found out Bo was alive and was somewhere off with him.  If I had to choose I would take Jen any day over Hope.  At least MR and CM act like they care about their children and people they know.  I feel like KA physically cringes every time she has to pretend BB is her son lol.  She deserved a better send off, but KA made her own bed with that one.

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On 2/24/2021 at 11:21 AM, Vee said:

I always found Walt Willey's voice so sexy and him so dashing and lovely even when the character was being a wet blanket. I think the stories failed and disrespected Jack, but I always loved Willey.

I felt the same way about Michael Nader’s voice.

 

On 2/24/2021 at 1:06 PM, FrenchBug82 said:

 

 And this is not a role that could be recast. 

How come? Yes he was Uber popular but also a uber new to the show aka newbie.

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1 hour ago, cassistan said:

How come? Yes he was Uber popular but also a uber new to the show aka newbie.

 

Sometimes it's not just about duration, but about impact. Honestly the idea of recasting Josh Duhamel's Leo probably gave AMC's casting director a headache. The audience likely would have rejected a new Leo so soon after Josh departed (Josh won an Emmy for Supporting Actor back when they still meant something). Look no further than the way AMC dismissed Juan Pablo and Carlos as romantic suitors for Greenlee. It was just too soon for the audience to move on with a recast or a new love interest for Greenlee. However at the same time Leo didn't necessarily have a reach where he would still fit on the canvas after McTavish started writing soon after his departure. Leo in this way was perfect for the time he was on the canvas, but from a character perspective doesn't fit narratively outside of a certain time period. 

 

I could see Leo coming back from a narrative perspective in 2003, but after 2003 it gets a bit hazy, on where he would have fit in the narrative. I would say he, Ryan, Trey and David were of a similar feather. They were giants when they debuted but slowly lost their luster and relevance outside of their heyday. At the end of the day Ryan and David were but husks of what they once were before. I could easily see Leo being reduced to what he was had he stayed on the canvas. What makes Leo so special is oddly enough his brevity, and how much he sparks from 1999-2002. 

 

The map of 2002's AMC's doesn't look all that great either, showing that the show likely had other priorities than investing a considerable amount of time and effort in a failed, dead on arrival recast. So much about it was so confusing. The Maggie/Frankie story, Trey, Dixie leaving, Kendell/Erica/Bianca drama, Anna was almost out the door at that point, Maureen/Maria drama, etc. 

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1 hour ago, cassistan said:

How come? Yes he was Uber popular but also a uber new to the show aka newbie.


The only reason the character took off like he did was specifically because Duhamel was popular.
The upside/downside of taking that risk would have been absurdly skewed to the negative and it is not like Leo was essential to the canvas. 

 

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On 2/24/2021 at 10:59 PM, Vee said:

when she returned to DAYS she was sophisticated, cool and had an edge.

 

That is Kristian's actual wheelhouse as a grown woman, and that is part of why (like Eileen Davidson on Y&R) it is so hard to find a man who can match her strength and energy.

This is so spot on!  I know part of her characterization when she was younger was Bo considering her a spoiled princess.  His Fancy Face.  Her growing up to be a little on the chilly side to everyone but him made sense.

 

I liked her in the action adventure stories when she was younger.  But as an adult, that cool sophistication should have been used more in business stories (Basic Black, Countess Wilhelmina) rather than police work, or generic soap mom. She and Kate would have made fun rivals, or used that to create more reasons than just Bo for her and Billie to have conflict.

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2 minutes ago, titan1978 said:

This is so spot on!  I know part of her characterization when she was younger was Bo considering her a spoiled princess.  His Fancy Face.  Her growing up to be a little on the chilly side to everyone but him made sense.

 

I liked her in the action adventure stories when she was younger.  But as an adult, that cool sophistication should have been used more in business stories (Basic Black, Countess Wilhelmina) rather than police work, or generic soap mom. She and Kate would have made fun rivals, or used that to create more reasons than just Bo for her and Billie to have conflict.

 

They should've made her ISA or whatever the agency is called on DAYS. The business could've been a cover job, like how John sometimes operates.

 

8 hours ago, cassistan said:

I felt the same way about Michael Nader’s voice.

 

Everyone did. His return in 2013 was unexpectedly thrilling - what he'd physically lost to drugs, he still had in presence and charm.

Edited by Vee
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